[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Minnysota]

support withdrawn. if you're going to be so aggressive and animalistic about it.

> says the person who wanted to forcefully remove a RP region's PW so raiders could have at it

[Nierr]

Mall, I must admit, you do make a good case. The reactions to the proposal in the thread, especially those who are already getting warned for just their initial comments, are amusing. I'll Abstain, I guess. I'm in no way a fan of weaponizing the Security Council for something like this, but I've got no love for Haven and am frankly tired of those who choose to play our R/D Game and then claim they should be protected from it themselves.

Tell me, which of the 8 nations currently residing in Haven were involved in any point in gameplay.

[The Batorys]

You have our support for this, regions should not be allowed to stagnate in such a slow heat-death-of-the-universe sort of manner. We will provide any support should it be deemed needed for us to do so.

R/D's ideas of "stagnating" are different from those of RPers.

[The Batorys]

I'm not familiar with exactly when Haven passworded itself, so if that four year figure needs adjusting one way or the other that information would be appreciated.

The date is 2004 by the way.

So the OP is complaining about something that's been in place for a decade.

[The Batorys]

Why shouldn't regions be allowed to just quietly sit there if that's what the residents want to do?

If they want to sit around and do nothing then don't bother joing a region which are meant for actual action. adding a password to enforce the sloth compounds this issue.

Your definition of "action" might be different from theirs.

And you can't be in NS without being in a region.

The best you can do is opt-out of the R/D shenanigans with a password.

Who made you the arbiter of what regions were "meant" for? Theirs clearly isn't meant for what you want yours to be.

[The Batorys]

support withdrawn. if you're going to be so aggressive and animalistic about it.

And don't for one second imply I don't know how things work. I dip my toe in this pond and have it bitten off, way to make an impression.

Maybe you should question your own stances, if that's how people reacted to them.

Lots of RPers use regions mainly as places to coordinate RPs, or just have quick access to their RP co-writers. They don't use them at all in the same way that raiders do.

RPer regions appear inactive to raiders sometimes when really the members are still actually fairly active, while raider regions appear inactive to RPers because they don't have any RPs.

[The Batorys]

Mall, I must admit, you do make a good case. The reactions to the proposal in the thread, especially those who are already getting warned for just their initial comments, are amusing. I'll Abstain, I guess. I'm in no way a fan of weaponizing the Security Council for something like this, but I've got no love for Haven and am frankly tired of those who choose to play our R/D Game and then claim they should be protected from it themselves.

"But officer, it can't be rape. She consented once, over a year ago...."

I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you mention it, a lot of this rhetoric sounds eerily like "she was asking for it!"

[Luna Amore]

Hey Batorys, there's an edit button for a reason. Quintuple posting is a bit much.

[Central Prestonia]

Look, I haven't been around in two years and it's highly likely that none of you will give a damn about what I have to say in any case but I just brought my nation out of retirement to address this point when it was brought to my attention.

Haven is, as much as any place on the internet can be, my home. I don't mean that lightly. I've known a lot of the old Havenites longer than most of my IRL friends, from awkward teenage years through college and into adulthood. Haven represents much more than I can put into words. At some of the worst points in my teenage life, it was my escape hatch. The writing I learned how to do there has become a hobby that I keep up to this day, the one talent I'm immensely proud of having. Now, we've all adjusted and grown up, we don't see each other as much on IRC anymore or have as much time to write, but Haven remains. It's not just a region, not just a target for people who played a part of the game we never had any interest in beyond defending our own. It's a symbol, to me at least, of a specific time in my life and some of my great friends I've made throughout that time. And now people who have no idea what it means or what it stands for want to destroy it, because it's there.

Raiders raid. That's what you all do, and I have no objection to it. But this isn't raiding. This is destroying, for the sake of destroying. And Haven may not be active as a region, but if I can bring my nation back after two years just to make a point to defend a piece of my history, I'm sure others will as well. We mean no harm to anyone, we take no part in your game, and we ask only that our region, our history, be allowed its natural and dignified end. And if you will not allow it, we will fight for it, as we have once before.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Its nice to see a WA forum moderator using the WA to troll the natives of this game into flaming. Classy as always.

[New Tsavon]

Its nice to see a WA forum moderator using the WA to troll the natives of this game into flaming. Classy as always.

I know.

It's so nice to see how fair and unbiased our moderation staff really is.

[Oseato]

Its nice to see a WA forum moderator using the WA to troll the natives of this game into flaming. Classy as always.

Ah, there is "nothing wrong" with this according to moderation so apparently its not trolling. Hopefully he will reconsider his motion but I think that's unlikely at this juncture. In any event, the fact of the matter is that this resolution is based on a falsehood that Haven is somehow responsible for the coup in the South Pacific in which the original poster was himself involved in and would know very well that Haven never once conspired or involved itself in The South Pacific's politics.

The fact that a moderator has decided to 1) troll and 2) lie is simply amazing. Really goes to show where NS stands in terms of supporting its users.

[Delmonte]

I mean... This WAS funny, and I'm PRETTY sure it was a joke. I think it sets a bad precedent for holding a region's not wanting to be involved in R/D against them, just in case this is a serious resolution. It's like punching someone in the face for not wanting to box with you and then saying, "Well you not wanting to box made you a Goddamn coward, so clearly you should lose the boxing match." If it's a serious proposition it's just a sort of cancer AIDS hepatitis genocide gangrenous phallus sort of thing to say.

[Renor Xukuth]

I mean... This WAS funny, and I'm PRETTY sure it was a joke. I think it sets a bad precedent for holding a region's not wanting to be involved in R/D against them, just in case this is a serious resolution. It's like punching someone in the face for not wanting to box with you and then saying, "Well you not wanting to box made you a Goddamn coward, so clearly you should lose the boxing match." If it's a serious proposition it's just a sort of cancer AIDS hepatitis genocide gangrenous phallus sort of thing to say.

We concur. It will destabilize the regions, and it could lead to the end of many aspects that are positive to this gaming experience.

[Oseato]

I mean... This WAS funny, and I'm PRETTY sure it was a joke. I think it sets a bad precedent for holding a region's not wanting to be involved in R/D against them, just in case this is a serious resolution. It's like punching someone in the face for not wanting to box with you and then saying, "Well you not wanting to box made you a Goddamn coward, so clearly you should lose the boxing match." If it's a serious proposition it's just a sort of cancer AIDS hepatitis genocide gangrenous phallus sort of thing to say.

What's great is this happened before and Haven was forced to play the game to get its region back. Once was apparently not enough.

[Delmonte]

I mean... This WAS funny, and I'm PRETTY sure it was a joke. I think it sets a bad precedent for holding a region's not wanting to be involved in R/D against them, just in case this is a serious resolution. It's like punching someone in the face for not wanting to box with you and then saying, "Well you not wanting to box made you a Goddamn coward, so clearly you should lose the boxing match." If it's a serious proposition it's just a sort of cancer AIDS hepatitis genocide gangrenous phallus sort of thing to say.

We concur. It will destabilize the regions, and it could lead to the end of many aspects that are positive to this gaming experience.

Yes. I can say that if Haven is liberated I and everyone in RP I'm associated with in Gameplay will move our accounts to Haven and endorse the native there. Unequivocally, that is what I will do.

[Vetok]

Speaking for myself, I'll happily dance with the devils of Delmonte and his followers if it helps prevent the spiteful usurpation of what is a historic roleplay region. You might not like Haven, and you might be willing to lie just to fuck it over, but not all of us are willing to let that happen.

[Delmonte]

Speaking for myself, I'll happily dance with the devils of Delmonte and his followers if it helps prevent the spiteful usurpation of what is a historic roleplay region. You might not like Haven, and you might be willing to lie just to fuck it over, but not all of us are willing to let that happen.

I'm getting up an in character role play on the International Incidents forums regarding the story of the defense of Haven. I wonder if you'd like to join?

EDIT: Also the Green-Black Concordat has been disbanded because the regions it protected went inactive.

[Benevolent Thomas]

Y'all remember to use the "N" when discussing R/N/D. Natives make up the vast majority of this game, even if they did not opt into Gameplay as we see it.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I'm going to respond to the general sentiments of the posts above rather than specific posts because there are so many and they tend to be incredibly repetitive. If anyone believes that I've missed a point then they can feel free to let me know.

1. Haven wasn't involved in TSP!
2. Even if it was that doesn't justify this!
3. You secretly want to raid Haven and that is all this is about!
4. Raiding is evil!

So let's go down that list and see where everything falls.

1) Haven was involved in TSP. They had the embassy, embassies which were given in exchange for support. How many of you roleplayers who have flooded this thread were there too? More than a few, fun fact. You can play the victim all you want and feign ignorance of what happened, but to argue that Haven was uninvolved is simply lying. Getting that embassy with haven and concessions in the WFE to various RP regions were critical to gaining the support that allowed the 2013 coup to last ten days instead of only three. For those who complain that I was involved in the Coup of TSP: wouldn't that make me the resident expert on who was and was not involved?

2) This is where I see a lot of confusion. The line regarding TSP is not a justification for the proposal. That line exists to serve as a rebuttal to a potential counterargument, it is not by itself a justification but rather seeks to undermine the justification for voting against. The other clauses justify the Liberation: namely that the activity generated by raiding it outweighs the "rights" of the natives to continue rotting behind the password. People keep touting the amazing history of Haven, but I'm the only one who is attempting to give it a future.

3) There is nothing sneaky about this proposal. I say in the text that I want this to result in a raid of Haven. So the various people who are accusing me of lying or trying to be sneaky probably haven't actually read the text of the proposal.

4) Hey you can think whatever you want about raiding. If you disagree, then vote against. The SC Liberation feature exists to strip regions of their autonomy as the voters see fit. If the voters see fit in this case then that will happen to Haven.


Lastly please keep in mind that accusations of rulebreaking such as flaming, trolling, moderator abuse, etc, do not belong in this thread. They belong in the moderation forum. Obviously I will not be moderating any aspect of this thread, so posting the claims here won't do anything other than rile people up, so as a player I'd appreciate it if that was kept in mind.

[Tano]

Its nice to see a WA forum moderator using the WA to troll the natives of this game into flaming. Classy as always.

I know.

It's so nice to see how fair and unbiased our moderation staff really is.

Just because they are mods doesn't mean they have to give up on playing the game. Mall is a raider. There are numerous defender mods as well. They are fair and unbiased when making rulings, but that doesn't prohibit them from actually playing the game as well. To say otherwise would be completly unfair and quite frankly a shitty idea.

[Kylarnatia]

1) Haven was involved in TSP. They had the embassy, embassies which were given in exchange for support. How many of you roleplayers who have flooded this thread were there too?

Dismissing the argument that peaceful regions such as Haven should not be attacked by noting that such "peaceful regions" were heavily involved in the 2013 coup of The South Pacific.

...and, from what I can gather from reading this thread, your only piece of evidence to support that claim is the fact that Haven had a brief embassy with The South Pacific during that time? Do you not perhaps think that, to roleplay regions, embassies embody a completely different meaning then what they do to the R/D game?

As far as I've always seen it, embassies were a friendly gesture, and that was that. Seeing as Milograd - a prominent member of the roleplaying community long before his supposedly infamous streak in the gameplay community - was in charge of The South Pacific at the time, do you not think it is plausible that regions like Haven accepted the embassies merely as a friendly gesture, and nothing else? I certainly know this to be the reason for why Gholgoth's embassy was established.

[Delmonte]

Mall, this is a base attempt to chase role players away from NationStates. And that's stupid. Because what Role Players do on NS is all that anyone from outside NS can really relate to.

"Oh, you write things for other people to see, wow that's really neat."

"Wait, you mean... at twelve am you... switch regions then... click a button and... that does what?"

See the difference?

[Vetok]

I'm going to respond to the general sentiments of the posts above rather than specific posts because there are so many and they tend to be incredibly repetitive. If anyone believes that I've missed a point then they can feel free to let me know.

1. Haven wasn't involved in TSP!
2. Even if it was that doesn't justify this!
3. You secretly want to raid Haven and that is all this is about!
4. Raiding is evil!

So let's go down that list and see where everything falls.

1) Haven was involved in TSP. They had the embassy, embassies which were given in exchange for support. How many of you roleplayers who have flooded this thread were there too? More than a few, fun fact. You can play the victim all you want and feign ignorance of what happened, but to argue that Haven was uninvolved is simply lying. Getting that embassy with haven and concessions in the WFE to various RP regions were critical to gaining the support that allowed the 2013 coup to last ten days instead of only three. For those who complain that I was involved in the Coup of TSP: wouldn't that make me the resident expert on who was and was not involved?

You're arguing an embassy is a reward, please explain how. And if you're going to play the game of 'Oh most of you here are guilty', name and shame those responsible. It'll be fascinating to see if any are still in Haven. What Milograd did was his problem entirely, and to be honest if you mentioned it to most people he associates with in RP channels they'd simply say 'TS what?'

2) This is where I see a lot of confusion. The line regarding TSP is not a justification for the proposal. That line exists to serve as a rebuttal to a potential counterargument, it is not by itself a justification but rather seeks to undermine the justification for voting against. The other clauses justify the Liberation: namely that the activity generated by raiding it outweighs the "rights" of the natives to continue rotting behind the password. People keep touting the amazing history of Haven, but I'm the only one who is attempting to give it a future.

I think the actual 'natives' of Haven as you call them have more of a right to decide what to do with their region than you.

3) There is nothing sneaky about this proposal. I say in the text that I want this to result in a raid of Haven. So the various people who are accusing me of lying or trying to be sneaky probably haven't actually read the text of the proposal.

Not accusing you of being sneaky. You're being incredibly baldfaced about it all.

4) Hey you can think whatever you want about raiding. If you disagree, then vote against. The SC Liberation feature exists to strip regions of their autonomy as the voters see fit. If the voters see fit in this case then that will happen to Haven.

And in this case, it's a damned silly idea to do it just for your personal playpit to get a little bigger.

[Tano]

Mall, this is a base attempt to chase role players away from NationStates. And that's stupid. Because what Role Players do on NS is all that anyone from outside NS can really relate to.

"Oh, you write things for other people to see, wow that's really neat."

"Wait, you mean... at twelve am you... switch regions then... click a button and... that does what?"

See the difference?

Yeeeaaaah...debates about which form of playing the game is more legitimate never end well. Let's please not go there