[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Rephesus]

Ah, now I get it. It's all about 'them'. Well, why don't you name names and shame them, Mall? Come on.

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Besides, their involvement is not relevant. The issues regarding Haven and TSP are crystal clear to outsiders looking in. Haven was one of the regions that provided support. RP'ers are flocking to defend it, just like they flocked to TSP to help Milograd. Nierr once correctly pointed out that it was stupid of them to do so since it would result in it being used as a potential argument for attacking them. Here it is a minor point.

So you can't provide any proof to the already baseless argument you've presented to justify this? Cool.

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

He's saying that the RP community didn't.

[The Batorys]

Well, gee, maybe Mini Meihm is on to something, and I should put some effort into putting an end to R/D. Except that if I succeeded, I'd be ruining fun for a lot of other people. Nah. Just leave me out of it, and go about your own business.

Exactly.

That was the point of that.

Nobody likes getting their shit destroyed. Not even raiders.

[Minnysota]

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

Try again, Mall. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This is about Haven, and you've provided no proof that Haven was even remotely involved. There many have been roleplayers involved in the coup, but by no means does that justify stripping them of their regions.


I'll also go ahead and deny my involvement in any R/D in the past year just to avoid you throwing that fallacy out again.

[Delmonte]

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

Nor did I. In fact, I got flak from the RPing community for being a Raider sympathizer for the Green-Black Concordat and even I am fed up with this!

[Venico]

"Complete isolation is not possible, though, since all regions have their feet in Gameplay (even if their heads are elsewhere). Regions are defined and governed by Gameplay rules. All this is very low-level and not at all central to why RP regions exist, of course, but you enter Gameplay the second you create a nation." - [violet]

Emphasis mine.

Weren't you saying that RPers and Raiders should connect and work together or something only months ago?

I believe I said Gameplayers but yes. We definitely should connect more and bridge the gap between our communities. Doesn't mean I don't support raiding the crap out of regions without a founder.

[Nierr]

If you have specific concerns or suggestions regarding Liberation proposals, changes to gameplay, and so on, take it to Technical.

The problem with this is that the admin and mod teams do not listen to the concerns of RPers when they raise them. And in the unlikely event they do, the reply is invariably 'sorry, can't do nothing about that'.

You guys can switch up the update schedule, make huge sweeping changes to influence and be instituting or planning to institute a really quite impressive list of changes to R/D but when it comes time to protect those communities who are the forgotten victims of raiding, RPer and non-RPer communities both, nothing changes.

I've given up trying to change the system, because it never will change. My only goal now is to stop things like this. And that means me using contacts in gameplay to attempt to influence the votes of the GCRs, and numerous contacts in roleplay to get the more... explicit members of the community to step back to let cooler heads argue the points. And it isn't working.

And this entire thing, this entire damn thing, just repeats itself. It is a never ending cycle of shit that gets forced down the throats of NSers. And you have abdicated responsibility for that. God - or whatever deity - only knows how disenchanted you guys must be with the whole thing that you've done that, but I know I'm one of the very few gameplaying RPers left who hasn't completely given up on this whole damn shitheap.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Well, gee, maybe Mini Meihm is on to something, and I should put some effort into putting an end to R/D. Except that if I succeeded, I'd be ruining fun for a lot of other people. Nah. Just leave me out of it, and go about your own business.

Exactly.

That was the point of that.

Nobody likes getting their shit destroyed. Not even raiders.

Which is why you don't see us sitting in founderless regions.

Did you notice how none of the significant RP'ers are denying their involvement?

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

I'm not trying to Liberate your region.

[Roania]

Alright, I've done it. I've set up a new WA nation just to vote against this stupid proposal. Now, can someone please tell me what currently active big names in the roleplaying community supported this Milograd nobody?

[Katalonua]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Actually, you really don't. I have this nation, Oroloo, in a dead region that got invaded. I was perfectly fine, still able to RP and such as with no consequence. So, yeah, you /can/ ignore gameplay. The problem is that regions make it easier to coordinate RPs. Thus, we try to keep them as separate from R/N/D as much as we can.

I'll admit that you have a good point though, we are not separate from gameplay, hell, it's why passwords and founders exist in our regions. However, is it too much to ask raiders to leave RPers alone? Is taking over an RP region, a solely RP region, really worth that much to you?

But here's the problem: You want to raid Haven. You haven't made this a secret. Which means the same rule of mistrust applies to you. We don't want to see it raided, so we're very likely to be biased and will likely omit evidence that runs contrary to our interests.

You, however, do want to see it raided. So you're also likely to be very biased.

There is a good chance you know what really went down, but we can't take your word for it since you have admitted that raiding Haven is in your interests, thus, any evidence you may have that would run contrary to the interest might be excluded for your own gain. Just as many of the RPers might be acting out of their own interests.

If Haven hadn't been involved in TSP then I would have chosen The Proletariat Coalition for this effort. TSP was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, in that while it is not by itself a huge thing or argument in my proposal, having it bolstered it just enough to make it work. I'm fine with opposition, no one is forced to support or agree.

Okay, fair enough. Logical reason to invade Haven, I suppose. However, one would then wonder why you didn't attack Proletariate Coalition instead of Haven. Since so many RPers hold Haven in such high esteem, there's going to be a lot of resistance both to this proposal and the actual raid if it gets allowed.

Wouldn't a region a large portion of the NS community didn't hold in high esteem be an easier target?

[Cyllea]

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

I'm not trying to Liberate your region yet.

Fixed.

[The Batorys]

See, there we disagree.

The whole purpose of founders and passwords is to be able to opt-out of playing that aspect of NS.

As far as we are concerned, NS is RP. To raiders and defenders, it's R/D. Neither is more valid than the other, neither was necessarily intended from the beginning, as R/D rose out of quirks in the game mechanics and people going "we can use our nations like soldiers in armies and take over other regions!". RP rose out of people going "hey, we have nations, we can write about them them interacting with each other on these forums!"

We're not fucking playing. You are essentially playing rugby and then going and tackling someone in the audience.

Nah, you're playing. You and your buddies are just making camp on the field and getting mad when someone trips over you. We're all playing.

Founders can cease to exist. Passwords can be compromised. They're just temporary deterrents. Honestly I have no problem with how you decide to spend your time, I fancy myself some roleplaying as well, but I don't do it in a game where I know regional warfare exists and whine about the game mechanics that existed long before I started playing. Yes, raiding was an unintended consequence. It was not removed, so it's still part of the game. That's honestly all I'm saying.

Raiding isn't any more an intended part of the game than RPing is.

And people shouldn't be forced into it any more than they forced into RPing.

Your arrogant assertion that your aspect of the game is THE GAME itself is part of why RPers hate you.

[Virana]

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

Are you honestly saying the roleplaying community is entirely monolithic and always unanimously supports one side in R/D?

A massive majority don't even participate in R/D. And of those that do, you have defenders and raiders and people on all sides of the coin. Deliberately referring to a single group that supported that particular raid and attempting to generalize the results to the entire body is ridiculous.

[The Batorys]

We're not fucking playing. You are essentially playing rugby and then going and tackling someone in the audience.

It'd be an audience to a totally different game. It's more like tackling the runners on the track around the pitch.

Exactly.

Yeah, we may all be at the same sports complex, but we're playing different games.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Okay, fair enough. Logical reason to invade Haven, I suppose. However, one would then wonder why you didn't attack Proletariate Coalition instead of Haven. Since so many RPers hold Haven in such high esteem, there's going to be a lot of resistance both to this proposal and the actual raid if it gets allowed.

Wouldn't a region a large portion of the NS community didn't hold in high esteem be an easier target?

The Proletariat Coalition has its own reasons to get raided, and it *may* have been an easier target. Haven though would be a hell of a raid.

Are you honestly saying that roleplayers did not support Milograd's coup?

Are you honestly saying the roleplaying community is entirely monolithic and always unanimously supports one side in R/D?

A massive majority don't even participate in R/D. And of those that do, you have defenders and raiders and people on all sides of the coin. Deliberately referring to a single group that supported that particular raid and attempting to generalize the results to the entire body is ridiculous.

A massive majority do not participate. But Haven did. Hence Liberate Haven.

[Nierr]

Alright, I've done it. I've set up a new WA nation just to vote against this stupid proposal. Now, can someone please tell me what currently active big names in the roleplaying community supported this Milograd nobody?

A large or small number of as yet unnamed Havenites who may or may not exist on this site anymore and may or may not have been organised on IRCs and sites that have nothing to do with nationstates.

Like the mainly Haven-descended SMS site.

[Minnysota]

Plus lets not forget you've still provided no proof that Haven was even remotely involved. And again, even if one or two Havenites were involved, that doesn't justify stripping them of their region. And can we stop calling this "Liberate Haven"? It's pretty clear that this is a Raid, not a Liberation.

[Delmonte]

Mallorea, I am in Anarchy right now endorsing a Raider delegate as part of an agreement with several raiding groups. Granted, I won't be there much longer, but that's where I've been for the past couple months. So doesn't that mean that the RP community supports the Raiders? By your Aristotelian quality logic.

[Minnysota]

A massive majority do not participate. But Haven did. Hence Liberate Haven.

Where's your proof?

[Roania]

...trying to post with my WA puppet, and it's not working.

[The Batorys]

Very few.

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

My nation isn't even in the WA, because it would make no sense IC for a nation like mine to be in such an organization, because sovereignty.

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.

I'd just like to know why this particular player has decided that people should be forced to play the raiding game. I just don't get it. Shouldn't you, as a mod for the site, try to promote people's ability to use the site as they want and not be forced into something?

Shouldn't you also know better than to propose a target that, when it was last done, caused numerous moderation violations and flame wars? Just seems irresponsible and honestly just an attempt at trolling the members of Haven.

People don't get to flame their way out of aspects of the game.

And looking at that NSHistory you seem to love, the last record for him is December 2013. He's been CTE for nearly eight months and you thought now was the time to post this frankly bullshit excuse for a proposal?

And unlike you, I'll post my evidence; http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

Old Father Vir is getting high blood pressure from the scent of bullshit.

What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

RPers in here were involved?

Who?

Name names. Enough of this condescending "oh, well I know that some people who I won't specify were involved..." pseudo-mysterious bullshit.

[Maltropia]

A massive majority do not participate. But Haven did. Hence Liberate Haven.

A massive majority in Haven did not participate.

[Venico]

Raiding isn't any more an intended part of the game than RPing is.

And people shouldn't be forced into it any more than they forced into RPing.

Your arrogant assertion that your aspect of the game is THE GAME itself is part of why RPers hate you.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=303025&p=20780618#p20780618

[Roania]

Alright, I've done it. I've set up a new WA nation just to vote against this stupid proposal. Now, can someone please tell me what currently active big names in the roleplaying community supported this Milograd nobody?

A large or small number of as yet unnamed Havenites who may or may not exist on this site anymore and may or may not have been organised on IRCs and sites that have nothing to do with nationstates.

Like the mainly Haven-descended SMS site.

I have no idea who any of these people are, but then, I may be out of the circle of RP these days.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Plus lets not forget you've still provided no proof that Haven was even remotely involved. And again, even if one or two Havenites were involved, that doesn't justify stripping them of their region. And can we stop calling this "Liberate Haven"? It's pretty clear that this is a Raid, not a Liberation.

You mean like besides the embassy which was given during the coup in exchange for support?

Mallorea, I am in Anarchy right now endorsing a Raider delegate as part of an agreement with several raiding groups. Granted, I won't be there much longer, but that's where I've been for the past couple months. So doesn't that mean that the RP community supports the Raiders? By your Aristotelian quality logic.

The members of the Concordat who signed on to support raiders do. But TSP wasn't a raid, it was a coup, a coup backed by around two hundred RP'ers, including some from Haven and Haven's express approval.

[Maltropia]

Oh, Mall, I know Paradoxia's not high on your list of regions to demolish, but I have to confess that former WAD United States of Peace (who has since CTE'd) did participate in the post-TSP coup endorsement of Milograd. Just so you have material when you get around to my region.