NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[Cossack Peoples]

Could an APS, such as the Trophy system, deal with the projectiles of recoilless anti-tank rifles, or are those too fast-moving?

[The Akasha Colony]

Could an APS, such as the Trophy system, deal with the projectiles of recoilless anti-tank rifles, or are those too fast-moving?

Modern recoilless weapons like the Carl Gustaf are generally around the same speed if not slower than anti-tank missiles like TOW or Javelin.

[Cossack Peoples]

Could an APS, such as the Trophy system, deal with the projectiles of recoilless anti-tank rifles, or are those too fast-moving?

Modern recoilless weapons like the Carl Gustaf are generally around the same speed if not slower than anti-tank missiles like TOW or Javelin.

Excellent... this'll work in my favor, then.

[Purpelia]

What I ask now I ask from a position of newer having fired a firearm. So bear with me.

I assume that if I fired one into someones elbow or knee at short range I could make the effected arm or leg fall off. And I mean completely fall off. As in completely 100% separate from the rest of the body. Am I correct in thus assumption?
If so, what would be the optimal distance to do so at? I know shotgun pellets tend to spread out over range. But I also know that 12 gauge is something like 19mm so just pressing the gun against the target area would not do either as it would just yield a 19mm hole. So there has to be a sweet spot for doing this. I presume there is some way of calculating shotgun spread that would make it possible to figure this out. And ideally some way that would let me calculate on the fly the correct distance for given limb dimensions.

These questions are serious so please answer them seriously.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What I ask now I ask from a position of newer having fired a firearm. So bear with me.

I assume that if I fired one into someones elbow or knee at short range I could make the effected arm or leg fall off. And I mean completely fall off. As in completely 100% separate from the rest of the body. Am I correct in thus assumption?
If so, what would be the optimal distance to do so at? I know shotgun pellets tend to spread out over range. But I also know that 12 gauge is something like 19mm so just pressing the gun against the target area would not do either as it would just yield a 19mm hole. So there has to be a sweet spot for doing this. I presume there is some way of calculating shotgun spread that would make it possible to figure this out. And ideally some way that would let me calculate on the fly the correct distance for given limb dimensions.

These questions are serious so please answer them seriously.

You are incorrect. At least in like 95% of cases.

[Gallia-]

Infantry consume the tank.

Well, if by "infantry" you mean "mine".

M2 Bradley has a box for carrying about 3 AT mines.

Mines are now property of the infantry.

Smd sapper tab.

In terms of intensity of losses, the top 10 saddest anime deaths (of armoured spearheads) have all involved opposing armour in a significant capacity. Though modern IFVs with ATGMs probably muddy this situation a lot. While a wall of ATGMs has merit on paper in practice it will be hard to bring the fire of very large numbers of ATGM teams to bear at any given point unless the battlefield was prepared very meticulously in advance and you made very good guesses about the axis of attack. Which is really just a case of the general problem defenders face...

listen here jack

how do i every man a javelin

anyway yes based on my In-Depth Knowledge(TM) of the Extremely Meticulous and Realistic Battle Simulator(TM)(R)(C) "CMBS" aka "kattsun puts the nasty grills in triangles and throws a mech battalion at them" what generally happens is all the GI Joes run away and i only win because i gave myself a high power tank platoon at the TO&E selection-modification screen

and even when in a really good supporting by fire position, the ATGW carriers 3-4 km back still get knocked out a lot and infantry in fortified triangular positions cannot hold against armor attacks that swarm the things behind them

tl;dr melt kulaks down into javelins not t-72s

Could an APS, such as the Trophy system, deal with the projectiles of recoilless anti-tank rifles, or are those too fast-moving?

yes that's what theyre supposed to kill

[Purpelia]

What I ask now I ask from a position of newer having fired a firearm. So bear with me.

I assume that if I fired one into someones elbow or knee at short range I could make the effected arm or leg fall off. And I mean completely fall off. As in completely 100% separate from the rest of the body. Am I correct in thus assumption?
If so, what would be the optimal distance to do so at? I know shotgun pellets tend to spread out over range. But I also know that 12 gauge is something like 19mm so just pressing the gun against the target area would not do either as it would just yield a 19mm hole. So there has to be a sweet spot for doing this. I presume there is some way of calculating shotgun spread that would make it possible to figure this out. And ideally some way that would let me calculate on the fly the correct distance for given limb dimensions.

These questions are serious so please answer them seriously.

You are incorrect. At least in like 95% of cases.

Really? I figured that buckshot at close range would have enough force to rip through flesh and break bone to the point where it all sheers off. Are you saying I would need multiple shots? How many do you think I'd need? Now I am worried that it would take too long which would seriously going to ruin the psychological effect of the act.

[Gallia-]

If you shot someone with a gun that had a caliber bigger than their leg it would amputate it. Or if it was really fast and sharp.

Tanks' long rods have severed legs above the knee in multiple instances with what are essentially grazing wounds because the fins are sharp and moving at hypervelocity.

[Purpelia]

If you shot someone with a gun that had a caliber bigger than their leg it would amputate it. Or if it was really fast and sharp.

That's why I figured shotguns would do it. Their shot spreads out in a cone so presumably you'd have a sweet spot where the spread would be sufficiently wide to cover the limb sufficiently to rip it off but not enough for the projectiles to be too wide apart and just make holes.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You are incorrect. At least in like 95% of cases.

Really? I figured that buckshot at close range would have enough force to rip through flesh and break bone to the point where it all sheers off. Are you saying I would need multiple shots? How many do you think I'd need? Now I am worried that it would take too long which would seriously going to ruin the psychological effect of the act.

Buckshot at close range might do it under some circumstances but for the most part bullets are what scientists call "very fast" and as a result they tend to go through appendages pretty quickly. The vast majority of firearms would not achieve the result you are seeking, and even with the weapon you are describing it would almost never happen under battlefield conditions.

[Spirit of Hope]

If you shot someone with a gun that had a caliber bigger than their leg it would amputate it. Or if it was really fast and sharp.

That's why I figured shotguns would do it. Their shot spreads out in a cone so presumably you'd have a sweet spot where the spread would be sufficiently wide to cover the limb sufficiently to rip it off but not enough for the projectiles to be too wide apart and just make holes.

Maybe it will happen from a shotgun at specific ranges, but it won't happen reliably.

[Purpelia]

Really? I figured that buckshot at close range would have enough force to rip through flesh and break bone to the point where it all sheers off. Are you saying I would need multiple shots? How many do you think I'd need? Now I am worried that it would take too long which would seriously going to ruin the psychological effect of the act.

Buckshot at close range might do it under some circumstances but for the most part bullets are what scientists call "very fast" and as a result they tend to go through appendages pretty quickly. The vast majority of firearms would not achieve the result you are seeking, and even with the weapon you are describing it would almost never happen under battlefield conditions.

I am not talking about battlefield conditions though. I figured so much was clear when I asked for a formula which would allow me to pick the perfect amputation range. Basically imagine me taking someone, tying her up in a torture dungeon and taking a shotgun to her limbs. I can dictate the range, position of contact and other variables as precisely as is possible with hand holding the gun as I think building a rig would diminish the psychological effect.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Buckshot at close range might do it under some circumstances but for the most part bullets are what scientists call "very fast" and as a result they tend to go through appendages pretty quickly. The vast majority of firearms would not achieve the result you are seeking, and even with the weapon you are describing it would almost never happen under battlefield conditions.

I am not talking about battlefield conditions though. I figured so much was clear when I asked for a formula which would allow me to pick the perfect amputation range. Basically imagine me taking someone, tying her up in a torture dungeon and taking a shotgun to her limbs.

Why do you want to know this?

[Purpelia]

I am not talking about battlefield conditions though. I figured so much was clear when I asked for a formula which would allow me to pick the perfect amputation range. Basically imagine me taking someone, tying her up in a torture dungeon and taking a shotgun to her limbs.

Why do you want to know this?

Let us not go on tangents. Just call it an experiment.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Why do you want to know this?

Let us not go on tangents. Just call it an experiment.

Anon, I am calling the police.

[Purpelia]

Let us not go on tangents. Just call it an experiment.

Anon, I am calling the police.

Oh come on. Can't you just consider the thought experiment?

[New Solaurora]

Oh come on. Can't you just consider the thought experiment?

Sir, Ma'am, you're scaring the children. We're gonna have to ask you to leave.

[Purpelia]

It's just harmless research for a project I have going now that I have way too much free time.

[Gallia-]

If you shot someone with a gun that had a caliber bigger than their leg it would amputate it. Or if it was really fast and sharp.

That's why I figured shotguns would do it. Their shot spreads out in a cone so presumably you'd have a sweet spot where the spread would be sufficiently wide to cover the limb sufficiently to rip it off but not enough for the projectiles to be too wide apart and just make holes.

Whose leg do you know is less than 18mm wide?

I have the dainty hands of a female and my little finger is almost 2 cm wide.

[Purpelia]

That's why I figured shotguns would do it. Their shot spreads out in a cone so presumably you'd have a sweet spot where the spread would be sufficiently wide to cover the limb sufficiently to rip it off but not enough for the projectiles to be too wide apart and just make holes.

Whose leg do you know is less than 18mm wide?

I have the dainty hands of a female and my little finger is almost 2 cm wide.

That's why I am talking about range. Basically I want to play to the cone shaped aspect of shotgun blasts knowing that at some point the diameter of the cone has to be sufficiently wide to do it.
Really, if I had access to a shotgun and some plywood sheets I could just map this out and figure out the spread calculation from that. It'd be half a hour worth job of just measuring the hole diameter after each shot and walking back until I have enough data points to say the diameter grows by Xmm for every Ymm of distance. But I don't. So I am reduced to asking people who might know more about these things than I do.

[Gallia-]

If you turn someone's knee into Swiss cheese it won't amputate it.

It'll just turn their knee into Swiss cheese.

[Kassaran]

That's why I am talking about range. Basically I want to play to the cone shaped aspect of shotgun blasts knowing that at some point the diameter of the cone has to be sufficiently wide to do it.
Really, if I had access to a shotgun and some plywood sheets I could just map this out and figure out the spread calculation from that. It'd be half a hour worth job of just measuring the hole diameter after each shot and walking back until I have enough data points to say the diameter grows by Xmm for every Ymm of distance. But I don't.

So, pellets wouldn't do that. They'd just make hamburger meat of the limb. You'd want to use like a heavy rifle round or slug. That'd have to be aimed at center-of-mass of the point and limb you wish to remove, and then you'd fire. Maybe then you'd get limb amputation, but- yeah. No. Purp, if you need to torture someone, do it a good ole' fashioned way with a blade. Rubbing alcohol and a lighter would do wonders too. Apply as you see fit.

[Triplebaconation]

holes make things stronger

don't humor him

[Purpelia]

If you turn someone's knee into Swiss cheese it won't amputate it.

It'll just turn their knee into Swiss cheese.

So you are saying that at what ever distance the pattern would spread out enough to do it the individual pellets would be to far apart to achieve the desired effect? Dam. That makes me sad.

Thank you for your replies everyone.

[Purpelia]

That's why I am talking about range. Basically I want to play to the cone shaped aspect of shotgun blasts knowing that at some point the diameter of the cone has to be sufficiently wide to do it.
Really, if I had access to a shotgun and some plywood sheets I could just map this out and figure out the spread calculation from that. It'd be half a hour worth job of just measuring the hole diameter after each shot and walking back until I have enough data points to say the diameter grows by Xmm for every Ymm of distance. But I don't.

So, pellets wouldn't do that. They'd just make hamburger meat of the limb. You'd want to use like a heavy rifle round or slug. That'd have to be aimed at center-of-mass of the point and limb you wish to remove, and then you'd fire. Maybe then you'd get limb amputation, but- yeah. No. Purp, if you need to torture someone, do it a good ole' fashioned way with a blade. Rubbing alcohol and a lighter would do wonders too. Apply as you see fit.

The thing about knifes and the like is that unless I go all ham and get my self something like a daneaxe they aren't really that scary. I mean yes, a kitchen knife being pointed at you is obviously frighting. No doubt about that. But it's a known quantity. Everyone in the world knows what it is, what it can do and ultimately that gives you some confidence when faced by it.

A firearm on the other hand is an unknown. Very few people are ever going to have real life sophistical experience with one. So to the vast majority of victims it's going to be this strange and frighting killing machine you only ever see on television where it's being depicted as a limb separating, head exploding, blood fountain producing magic wand of murder. Just having that in ones hand brings forth fear, terror and dare I say desperation in ones victims much more than any sort of blade.

I mean, I guess something insane like a chainsaw could do it as well. Which actually makes me think of something. Do you think those corded electric chainsaws you can get have enough power to cut through bodies? I am hoping yes because the alternative of a gas powered one is just unacceptable on account of the smell and noise. Not that I personally am against those things but the neighbors might complain.