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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:36 am

Tbh if the 125 mm autoloaders had regularly eaten crewmen's arms they'd been discarded at the prototype stage and the designers retired to Dagestan.
<.>
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.


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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:18 am

Gallia- wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not what I meant.


It is more or less what you said lol.

No, it really isn't.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:37 am

Image

The 6ETs "MZ" is incapable of fitting any sort of human anatomy in its work area during operation. The gunner is displaced by a good foot or so and the commander a similar distance from the tiny spot behind the breech where the shells come up. Anyone wide enough to intrude upon it wouldn't actually fit inside the hatch of the T-64, anyway, so it's something of a non-issue. The worst that happens is that someone is being stupid and has their arm in a place where it literally should not be because they aren't at their station or because they're doing something with the loader, so the shell guide comes up and snags their uniform, tearing it a bit. This would more likely occur during loading the tank with a combat load of ammunition, because you have to manually put in rounds and operate the MZ to index ammunition. It would get you yelled at by the warrant officer if you ended up ripping a big hole in your tank suit, but no serious bodily injuries could actually occur.

The shell guide mechanism literally cannot accommodate human anatomy in a way that would make it capable of causing injury without putting your hand inside the machine. The guides have built in guards (for the shell-propellant cassette, not your hands) and are really tiny anyway. If the crew are at their stations and operating their controls or looking out periscopes, then it is physically impossible for the MZ cassette guide to touch them. OTOH there are lots of sharp sheet metal and other protruding elements which would be great at grabbing and ripping sleeves or cuffs.

The Soviets were not stupid and they knew how far away a gun breech and its loading mechanism needs to be from a crewman, in all dimensional dispersion, and they minimized to this to the smallest safe level in the T-64. For comparison, the M1 requires an automatic shut off switch on the ammo bunker door in case your arm gets stuck inside it, which actually happens when disassembling the ammo racks and moving shells around after the first dozen or so 120mm have been loaded. The 6ETs MZ's are so safe they don't even need safety cages or pressure sensitive electric cutoffs, because they are literally not in the area occupied by any crewman. So I guess Americans were actually stupid for needing to put in a safety feature because they put their tankers in harm's way with a heavy metal object moving at incredible hihg speed that might break an arm if it closes on you. If they were smart they would have gave it an automatic loader and a 4th crewman to operate the radio and second pintle machine gun.

You'd have about much a chance of having your arm (or any anatomy) eaten during normal operation of the T-64/T-80 MZ as you would having your dick sucked into the Leclerc's breech.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:50 am, edited 4 times in total.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:52 am

Like I said, I was talking about early versions of the autoloader, which have more than likely had several revisions since then.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:53 am

That is the early version...

"Later" versions of the MZ generally changed actual things that matter, like the sensors used for detecting indexed ammunition, as well as the quantity of indices available to accommodate new forms of ammunition (such as the Svir or Kobra missiles), rather than something so basic and 90 IQ as "spatial separation between crewmen and moving machinery". I think 6ETs-43 has a new electrical system (probably because T-80U has a bigger turret than T-80B/T-64A and needs different wire layout, or they were able to fit in some things they'd wanted to do for -40 and couldn't) and that's about as divergent as the family gets, with most of the differences being due to whether or not the tanks are intended to operate the Refleks/Svir/Kobra missiles.

If your engineers are having trouble figuring out how far away the tank's breech needs to be to they should probably be stripped of their license and demoted to "factory floor laborer". If they can't do it without a fatal or dangerous accident then they should be jailed for negligent manslaughter or something. Since none of the engineers of T-64, T-80, or T-72 were jailed for any of this we can assume it never happened!

Again, the MZ is about as safe as a completely isolated automatic loader like the AMX Leclerc's. Its only real flaw is that it isn't fireproof, honestly, and that's something that isn't exactly unique to T-64/T-80.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:03 am

Gallia- wrote:That is the early version...

"Later" versions of the MZ generally changed actual things that matter, like the sensors used for detecting indexed ammunition, as well as the quantity of indices available to accommodate new forms of ammunition (such as the Svir or Kobra missiles), rather than something so basic and 90 IQ as "spatial separation between crewmen and moving machinery". If your engineers are having trouble figuring out how far away the tank's breech needs to be to they should probably be stripped of their license and demoted to "factory floor laborer". If they can't do it without a fatal or dangerous accident then they should be jailed for negligent manslaughter or something.

I dunno what else to tell you other than that's what the sources I've seen say about the early version autoloader, and that other problems related to them significantly delayed their use, to the extent that some deployed T-64s couldn't use their autoloaders.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:06 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Gallia- wrote:That is the early version...

"Later" versions of the MZ generally changed actual things that matter, like the sensors used for detecting indexed ammunition, as well as the quantity of indices available to accommodate new forms of ammunition (such as the Svir or Kobra missiles), rather than something so basic and 90 IQ as "spatial separation between crewmen and moving machinery". If your engineers are having trouble figuring out how far away the tank's breech needs to be to they should probably be stripped of their license and demoted to "factory floor laborer". If they can't do it without a fatal or dangerous accident then they should be jailed for negligent manslaughter or something.

I dunno what else to tell you other than that's what the sources I've seen say about the early version autoloader, and that other problems related to them significantly delayed their use, to the extent that some deployed T-64s couldn't use their autoloaders.


Yeah if your engine is on fire and not producing electrical power you probably can't use an electrically operated loader. Shocker.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:08 am

Gallia- wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I dunno what else to tell you other than that's what the sources I've seen say about the early version autoloader, and that other problems related to them significantly delayed their use, to the extent that some deployed T-64s couldn't use their autoloaders.


Yeah if your engine is on fire and not producing electrical power you probably can't use an electrically operated loader. Shocker.

...engine fire? What?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:33 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
Yeah if your engine is on fire and not producing electrical power you probably can't use an electrically operated loader. Shocker.

...engine fire? What?


Early 5TD series engines had problems with cooling and overheating that were "solved" by limiting the operating hours of the tanks in training and accepting that entire companies and platoons would end up stranded roadside because of redlines and maybe an occasional engine fire in wartime. Wouldn't be the first time the Red Army got held because of engine trouble. Nor the last. Liberation from international global capitalist exploitation (and destruction of future threats who might take advantage of global capitalist exploiters' general incompetence at political maneuvering) takes time but slow and steady wins the race.

Later 5TD series engines solved the problem by getting replaced by gas turbines.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:37 am

Gallia- wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:...engine fire? What?


Early 5TD series engines had problems with cooling and overheating that were "solved" by limiting the operating hours of the tanks in training and accepting that entire companies and platoons would end up stranded roadside because of redlines and maybe an occasional engine fire in wartime. Wouldn't be the first time the Red Army got held because of engine trouble. Nor the last. Liberation from international global capitalist exploitation (and destruction of future threats who might take advantage of global capitalist exploiters' general incompetence at political maneuvering) takes time but slow and steady wins the race.

Later 5TD series engines solved the problem by getting replaced by gas turbines.

I didn't mention the engines.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Ideal Britain
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Founded: Mar 31, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ideal Britain » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:38 am

I’m thinking of designing an Afro-Caribbean male RAF officer who rose through the ranks (joining as an airman from a working-class background in London).
Any ideas?
A nation that does represent my views set in Britain in the late 2040s.
Current year: 2048
Leader:
Air-Commodore Sir Alexander Khan, Knight of the Garter, Commander of the British Empire, Bachelor of Science, MP.

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Gallia-
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:46 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
Early 5TD series engines had problems with cooling and overheating that were "solved" by limiting the operating hours of the tanks in training and accepting that entire companies and platoons would end up stranded roadside because of redlines and maybe an occasional engine fire in wartime. Wouldn't be the first time the Red Army got held because of engine trouble. Nor the last. Liberation from international global capitalist exploitation (and destruction of future threats who might take advantage of global capitalist exploiters' general incompetence at political maneuvering) takes time but slow and steady wins the race.

Later 5TD series engines solved the problem by getting replaced by gas turbines.

I didn't mention the engines.


The autoloaders were probably failing because of electrical distribution issues, which was a common problem with Ukrainian designed main battle tanks, as well as poor engine designs, as both these problems tended to show in mediums from T-64 to Object 477. Since literally the same people who were involved with T-64 were also involved with Object 477, representing the first and last post-war Red Army mediums, it's not really surprising. Object 477 suffered electrical distribution problems with its MZ and fire control system due to shitty LNIRTI bus controllers getting voltage spikes and cooking themselves. This is what KMDB gets for not buying Eugene's stupid gigatank that Andrei faps to.

It was certainly not because hands were getting stuck in the machines or blood gumming on the chain rammer lol.

T-64's MZ worked fine when all the teething issues related to the electrical system (namely: the engine overheating) and engine were worked out through various means (namely: not running it so much). There apparently weren't any serious issues with the 6ETs-10/6ETs-15 except that neither couldn't fire the Kobra missile, which was rectified with the 6ETs-40 in the T-64B.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:04 pm


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Shanghai industrial complex
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Founded: Feb 20, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:09 am

During the Heisei years, the Japanese soldiers were so happy
And I like this.They played a song called the cosmic Battleship Yamato as they sailed out
Last edited by Shanghai industrial complex on Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
And we give it back to you...the people!

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Hrstrovokia
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Postby Hrstrovokia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:18 am

Can I ask opinions on this? I've done a config for a platoon in a Mech Inf unit. It's based off using Soviet/Russian/Non-NATO equipment.

[x3 Rifles Squads composed of 8 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-105 + RPG-26, x1 Senior Rifleman - AK-74M w/GP-34 + RPG-26, x1 Rifleman - AK-74M w/GP-34 + RShG-2, x1 Grenadier - AK-105 + RPG-7V2 [RPG], x1 Grenadiers Assistant - AK-74M + OG-7V/PG-7VL/PG-7VR rounds, x1 Squad Automatic - RPK-74M + RShG-2 [LMG], x2 Vehicle Crew]

[x1 Weapons Squad composed of 8 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-105, x1 ATGM Gunner - AK-105 + 9K115-2 Metis-M1 [ATGM], x2 ATGM Assistants - AK-105 + 9M131M/9M131FM rounds, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG] w/Glock 17, x1 Gunners Assistant - AK-105 + PKM ammo, x2 Vehicle Crew]

[x1 Plt HQ composed of 6 - x1 Plt Leader - AK-105, x1 Plt Sergeant - AK-74M w/ GP-34, x1 Medic - AK-105, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG] w/Glock 17, x1 Gunners Assistant - AK-105 + PKM ammo, x1 Marksman - SVDM w/Glock 17]


Are there two few marksmen? The Mech Inf Battalion would have a dedicated Sniper platoon (SV-98, OSV-96, KSVK). The HQ & Services Battalion also has one. plus 3 more SVDK-equipped marksmen in a Heavy Weapons platoon of the Mech Inf Battalion.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:58 am

My response to the above is here: viewtopic.php?p=37540885#p37540885
Last edited by The New California Republic on Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Hrstrovokia
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hrstrovokia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:36 am

The New California Republic wrote:My response to the above is here: viewtopic.php?p=37540885#p37540885


Thanks NCR!

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Doppio Giudici
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Doppio Giudici » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:06 pm

Does anyone know anything about "Metal Foam" armor and how useful it might be for IFVs?
I use this old account for FT, Pentaga Giudici and Vadia are for MT.

"Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening"

Construction is taking forever, but Prole Confederation will be paying millions of Trade Units for embassies and merchants that show up at the SBTH

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The Akasha Colony
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:35 pm

Doppio Giudici wrote:Does anyone know anything about "Metal Foam" armor and how useful it might be for IFVs?


This thread has been retired. The current one is here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=489819
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
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National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
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Great Nortend
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Great Nortend » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:16 am

Manokan Republic wrote:
Great Nortend wrote:I have designated a sort of close of the AK-74 (appropriated by GN as the Devenson Royal Armoury General Use Rifled Assault Gun Mark V) as the standard service rifle for my army. Would it be feasible to increase its length to 45 inches and rechamber it to accept 6.22mm rounds do you think? I am concerned the extra length could make it too long, but I'm am a complete firearms novice.

It's possible but I think a 16 inch barrel would be fine, especially if you used the same propellant. The 7.62mm x 39mm has a 16 inch barrel and generates 2200 joules of energy so, if going by that case, it's possible to make it have the same barrel length and yet still have quite a bit of power. This is the better bet, as it has more power from a shorter barrel and is easier to go down than up. The difference in size between the 5.45mm and 7.62mm case is also quite small, but enough to make the powder difference substantial. Imo that's the way to go. Neck down a 7.62mm case.

Some good examples of this are the .220 russian, 6mm PPC, and 6.5mm Grendel, although the grendel case is slightly malformed so it will fit in an AR-15 magazine better. Nonetheless it uses the same parent case, which is roughly the same as the 7.62mm case, and you can see how in comparison it can generate similiar levels of energy. Going down is usually easier than going up. At least with retaining the same level of power. The 7.62mm case is actually a good base case, given it's low weight for powder capacity, higher reliability given the broader casehead and curved shape, and also the fact the powder seems to burn pretty quickly in the barrel. A 10 inch barrel Ak still generates like 1600 joules, which is quite a lot. Granted the ballistics will change a bit switching to 6mm, but not by much. Given that the 6mm PPC is already a thing and has been chambered in a number of Ak's, and it's always easier to work off of real life figures, this may be the way to go, or some rendition of it.

My advice if you want a REALLY long barreled gun is to make it bullpup. This is where bullpups really shine. The Tavor is essentially a bullpup ak and generally a very good gun, but the OTS-14 Groza is the best example of a direct bullpup ak, and it's quite small despite the barrel length, or 25 inches with a 16 inch barrel, the same length or slightly shorter than an MP5 or 10.5 inch barrel HK416. With a 24 inch barrel, it would thus only be 33 inches long, or still the length of an M4 carbine or Ak. There are versions with longer barrels/suppressor added, to give a rough idea of what it would look like. It's better to keep the barrel length short though in my opinion.

Image
Image


I completely forgot about this, so I apologise for not replying. I'm more going for “longer = better”. To be honest, I just hate the look of bullpups and short rifles. I've drilled with Austeyrs and they're so short and you can't do anything with them. They're probably more practical or more portable to be fair. I have an affection for the SLR hence the 45″ length.

Edit: Crossposted.
Last edited by Great Nortend on Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
News from Great Nortend: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=417866
Tourism and Q&A thread: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=458726
Diplomacy, Embassies &c.: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=417865
If you have any questions about Great Nortend, please ask in the diplomacy thread above.

This nation generally represents my personal views in most areas, though slightly exaggerated perhaps.

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