Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Cosparia]

There is nothing wrong with learning to fire on Iron Sights as well as with optics. If the optic is broken or somehow damaged, having your Iron Sights and knowing how to use them will help. I also fail to see an issue with the M81 BDU. It is a perfectly functional uniform and the camo pattern is still viable.

I never said there was anything wrong with retaining iron sights, at least as a backup. Irons as a soldier's only sighting system in the modern age is probably not the greatest idea, but being proficient in their use is certainly an advantage if one's fancy high-tech optic fails. I'm actually keeping the carry-handle sight on my real AR until I can shoot adequately with irons, before spending potentially hundreds of dollars on any sort of optic.

[Gallia-]

You mean something like this?

More like this. The carry handle in this instance is the mount. It has a special bracket built into it that's a bit tougher than a single point screw but also retains the zero because there's no adjustment of the mounting point.

The thing immediately obvious to me is that a setup like that is going to pose some serious height-over-bore issues in CQB,

Don't worry they--

If Gallan troops are still trained to hipfire full-auto at 15 meters, then the former is probably a non-issue,

Yeah that.

Specifically this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uv84wwebe02h4 ... .jpg?raw=1

(...) but holdover/under for an optic mounted that high seems like it'd be a problem to train around. (...) and holdover issues anywhere beyond what the optic was zeroed to.

Possibly but Galla likely considers the benefits of being able to use iron sights better than using a flattop because it's full of stodgy, curmudgeonly Cold Warriors who haven't fought a real war in decades. It also doesn't consider individual marksmanship past ~300 yards to be a serious utility for infantry combat. At that point you're sorta just trained to vaguely aim at where you think the enemy might be and fire short bursts of automatic weapons fire while moving forward, until you get close enough to actually spot them and clear your sight.

If holdover becomes a serious problem Galla would resort to a really awkward and terrifying cowitnessed magnified optic like the ITL Mars or EOTech '90s mounts but with a ACOG instead.

But Galla is probably so used to getting shot from 500 yards away by "inhuman" accurate sharpshooters it just stuffs mortars, machine guns, and light artillery everywhere it can to compensate.

in equally-ancient M81 woodland camouflage (though made in a modern ACU-style construction).

Galla recently discovered the benefits of "camouflage". haHAA

Prior to like 2014 its army looked like this: https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/ ... my_013.jpg minus the AUG.

Most of it still does! Maybe more like this, though.

Rails are actually good for mass production

I don't see it. Rails are machining heavy which is expensive and time consuming. Mass production would call for something like stamping or at least casting. M16's upper receiver is cast and the handguard is cut/stamped, which is about as fast as it can get. The actual Deep Lore(TM) reason is probably closer to "Galla is a highly paternalist society and no one wants something that allows a teenager to overrule a 30-something sergeant or a 20-something Lieutenant with an IQ in the upper 15% of the general population" but no one would admit this because they probably don't think on that abstract a level.

Maybe Galla just never had Weaver mounts but used screws and circle locks or something? RIS is also sorta heavy besides that, there are lighter mounting systems that maybe aren't as intuitive or adjustable, though.

because you can just switch the accessory lines quickly, you have an easy, common mounting system for weird objects, like PEQs.

I think this calls for a standardized mounting system, not "rails" per se, but just "something you can solidly and stably mount a sight on". Galla has a standard mounting system in the carry handle that has a series of ridges that support things mounted on it, up things as big as Starlight scopes and whatnot, so it's not lacking for mounting systems per se, but it is lacking the "moveability" of sights to be adjusted for different lengths or whatnot that rails offer. The other mounting system isn't a rail, but rather a punched/cut hole and clip system that is a bit lighter but a bit less intuitive perhaps.

I've considered the attachment points for the rifle being similar to ALICE clips or MOLLE plastic tabby bois ("clips"?) for guns BTW, in that the attachment clips (arguably the most complex piece to manufacture, since they have springs and curves) are separate from the piece being mounted. You pull off the old PEQ and put on the new PEQ but the attachment point might have seen like 3 generations of PEQs run through it. It would attach with a slide clip-style that can be released by depressing a pair of detents on the PEQ and pulling it off.

It's more parts than the threadhole/screw of the RIS mount but that's whatever when you can recycle the clips I suppose. Each rifle would only need 3-4 mounting brackets and innumerable attachment/accessory lines can be mated to them. Of course I suppose that begs the question of why not mount the brackets to the gun all the time, and I guess that is basically to accommodate awkward things like PEQs (it's much easier to slide it on/off if it isn't obstructed on the gun) and because permanent mounting would make the gun wider/heavier than it "should" be.

That said they're heavy.

Galla's hole cut mounting points on the foregrip are probably lighter than machined aluminum rails, TBF, much like the PCAP. That's about the only advantage aside from retention of zero.

Come to think of it, it's actually pretty similar to PCAP in concept if not execution, being a series of fixed hole mounting points that aren't as adjustable, but are pretty strong, stable, and lightweight.

[Taihei Tengoku]

:!: machinings can be mass produced

[Gallia-]

A quad rail handguard takes like 20 minutes to produce from billet to pulling it out of the mill. OTOH cutting a few big holes like the thing I drew in a cylinder probably takes about half to a third of that time.

That's a huge difference.

e: Ignore the part where all this brave time spent milling a hole is completely lost because Gallan Ordnance Board demands a fully toolless, screwless, threadless attachment point system that uses a spring loaded cantilever fastener.

[Cosparia]

At that point you're sorta just trained to vaguely aim at where you think the enemy might be and fire short bursts of automatic weapons fire while moving forward, until you get close enough to actually spot them and clear your sight.

(...) But Galla is probably so used to getting shot from 500 yards away by "inhuman" accurate sharpshooters it just stuffs mortars, machine guns, and light artillery everywhere it can to compensate.

Yeah see, that's what the heavy belt-fed GPMGs, Browning .50s, AGLs, etc. are for; laying down a wall of lead/high explosives/whatever until the advancing infantry get close enough to pop the other guy. Maybe the infantry can help with the burst-fire function, but that's only if the infantryman managed to lie, beg, cheat, steal, etc. to get extra ammo to feed his rifle, since they're only allotted a paltry 4 magazines as a basic load. It doesn't help that the rifleman's issued pouch set only includes 2 double-mag pouches, vs. 3-4 utility pouches, 2 frag grenade pouches, a gas mask carrier, IFAK pouch, a 9mm pouch and holster if they're an NCO or officer, etc...

Basically, a typical Cosparian infantryman carries enough of everything except ammunition.

in equally-ancient M81 woodland camouflage (though made in a modern ACU-style construction).

Galla recently discovered the benefits of "camouflage". haHAA

Prior to like 2014 its army looked like this: https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/ ... my_013.jpg minus the AUG.

Most of it still does! Maybe more like this, though.

Funny, Cosparian Army Reserve units still looked something like this well into the 1990s. Some basic training units still do.

e:

If holdover becomes a serious problem Galla would resort to a really awkward and terrifying cowitnessed magnified optic like the ITL Mars or EOTech '90s mounts but with a ACOG instead.

Good gods, that is terrifying, isn't it?

[Kampala-]

optic sights lmao

kampala here tryna fucking 3d print a ar-10 out of sewae pipe and gourd husks lmao

[Palmyrion]

Are fin-stabilized discarding sabot flechette rounds actually effective in piercing armor? I'm not trying to increase the volume of fire by placing two flechettes in one sabot, I just basically want to make a mini version of tank grade APFSDS in an attempt to increase armor penetration.

How about accuracy?

[Austrasien]

Are fin-stabilized discarding sabot flechette rounds actually effective in piercing armor?

Yes.

How about accuracy?

No.

[Palmyrion]

What makes them inaccurate when you not only fin-stabilize then but also impart spin via rifling on the sabot?

[Austrasien]

What makes them inaccurate when you not only fin-stabilize then but also impart spin via rifling on the sabot?

A lot of things. Though rifling is irrelevant and could be eliminated from a flechette gun.

• Fin asymmetry either resulting from damage or poor production
• Misalignment of the sabot inside the bore
• Interaction between the muzzle blast and the flechette
• Failure of the sabot to separate "cleanly"

In studying the causes of flechette dispersion Frankford Arsenal concluded:

The most important aspect would be to protect the fins from asymmetries, damage, and interference from the separating sabot.

The primary cause of inaccurate flechette rounds can probably be boiled down to cheap poorly manufactured and poorly designed sabots and cheap, poorly made flechettes. Flechettes probably require a more precise manufacturing process than what is normally considered acceptable for small arms ammunition and the design/production of the sabot in particular needs very close attention - flechette ammunition made historically has tended to use very simple sabots w/an eye towards production cost that are evidently inadequate.

[Palmyrion]

Hmmm...I guess we can achieve the same armor piercing effect with APDS rounds? They don't require fins after all. APDS may have sabot but that's there is to it.

[Gallia-]

The 7.62mm SLAP tended to rupture machine gun barrels for similar reasons: the sabot broke up mid-bore, sent the penetrator off on a crazy ride, and through the side of stellite machine gun barrels. I don't know if 6.5mm CBJ solved this problem or not with their teeny penetrator, since that is a pistol round which operates at a much lower velocity and pressure than a machine gun round, it may not have any practical insights for making a rifle caliber sabot work.

[Purpelia]

Another thing to consider is that flachettes are going to only have a fraction of the mass of a regular bullet for a similar weapon. And less mass equals less momentum leading to a projectile that's much more likely to be diverted by foliage, wind and other forces. Not a huge problem for a tank guns simply because their shells are huge to begin with, and half of huge is still huge. Bullets not so much.

[Palmyrion]

Another thing to consider is that flachettes are going to only have a fraction of the mass of a regular bullet for a similar weapon. And less mass equals less momentum leading to a projectile that's much more likely to be diverted by foliage, wind and other forces. Not a huge problem for a tank guns simply because their shells are huge to begin with, and half of huge is still huge. Bullets not so much.

What's with the comparative success of .50 BMG SLAP tho?

[The Akasha Colony]

What's with the comparative success of .50 BMG SLAP tho?

It's bigger, which means it has a stronger sabot that is less prone to breakup. And because .50 cal ammunition is used in smaller quantities than 7.62, higher round costs are acceptable which allows for a better manufacturing process. M903 costs about the same as Mk 211 Raufoss (about $7-$8 USD per round) and is several times the price of M2 .50 BMG ball ammo (which goes for $2.50 on the civilian market and is probably a bit cheaper for the government).

For comparison, $7-$8 is an order of magnitude more expensive than a standard rifle round. M855A1, which is a little on the expensive side due to the increased copper content, is $0.31-$0.40 per round. This is why price is such an obstacle: it is probably very possible to machine a sufficiently precise flechette and sabot for rifle use. But doing so at a reasonable price point is the problem.

[Purpelia]

Another thing to consider is that flachettes are going to only have a fraction of the mass of a regular bullet for a similar weapon. And less mass equals less momentum leading to a projectile that's much more likely to be diverted by foliage, wind and other forces. Not a huge problem for a tank guns simply because their shells are huge to begin with, and half of huge is still huge. Bullets not so much.

What's with the comparative success of .50 BMG SLAP tho?

Better than a 5.56 one to be sure. But by how much I do not know. Either way though at that point what would be the actual point? I mean, a 12.7mm flachete isn't going to go through any serious vehicle armor. And a regular 12.7 is going to happily go through any armor you can put on a man who is expected to walk and fight. So like what is the niche here?

[The Akasha Colony]

Better than a 5.56 one to be sure. But by how much I do not know. Either way though at that point what would be the actual point? I mean, a 12.7mm flachete isn't going to go through any serious vehicle armor. And a regular 12.7 is going to happily go through any armor you can put on a man who is expected to walk and fight. So like what is the niche here?

It goes through armor meant to stop conventional .50 BMG ball ammo or more mundane AP rounds, which is the point. There are lots of medium-weight vehicles that are protected against .50 cal ball ammo but not .50 cal SLAP, given that M903 SLAP penetrates somewhere between twice and three times as much armor as standard ball ammunition. One of the problems with the 7.62 mm SLAP rounds was that they did not demonstrate this same level of improvement over standard ball ammo as the .50 cal variant.

[Purpelia]

Better than a 5.56 one to be sure. But by how much I do not know. Either way though at that point what would be the actual point? I mean, a 12.7mm flachete isn't going to go through any serious vehicle armor. And a regular 12.7 is going to happily go through any armor you can put on a man who is expected to walk and fight. So like what is the niche here?

It goes through armor meant to stop conventional .50 BMG ball ammo or more mundane AP rounds, which is the point. There are lots of medium-weight vehicles that are protected against .50 cal ball ammo but not .50 cal SLAP, given that M903 SLAP penetrates somewhere between twice and three times as much armor as standard ball ammunition. One of the problems with the 7.62 mm SLAP rounds was that they did not demonstrate this same level of improvement over standard ball ammo as the .50 cal variant.

2-3 times as much? I stand corrected than. I was expecting an improvement more in line with what you see on small arms.

[A m e n r i a]

Quick question: what makes a good rifle and good ammo?

[Purpelia]

Quick question: what makes a good rifle and good ammo?

Honest answer: Similarity to existing rifles and their ammo.

[Crookfur]

Quick question: what makes a good rifle and good ammo?

A rifle and ammo that do their job.

The hard part is figuring out what that job should be.



On terms of actually designing something it comes down to knowing what you are talking about.

[Palmyrion]

Quick question: what makes a good rifle and good ammo?

A rifle and ammo that do their job.

The hard part is figuring out what that job should be.



On terms of actually designing something it comes down to knowing what you are talking about.

I do recall someone here designed a rifle that fired a 4mm bullet.

[A m e n r i a]

I'm thinking of designing a high-damaging hollow point ammo (made of silver so it can hurt demons) and the type of rifle ideal for such a bullet. Any suggestions?

[Crookfur]

I'm thinking of designing a high-damaging hollow point ammo (made of silver so it can hurt demons) and the type of rifle ideal for such a bullet. Any suggestions?

Well you have a start in that you need to hurt demons. Now all you need to figure out is at what range, do you need to suppress them with automatic fire, will multiple hits do the job, do said demons wear armour, does the rifle need to be controllable in automatic fire from an upsippprted stance, how heavy can the rifle be, what sort of ammo load do you want? Etc etc.

IIRC the last major fiction work to deal with killing demons with modern militaries went with. 50 beowulf ARs.

[Spirit of Hope]

I'm thinking of designing a high-damaging hollow point ammo (made of silver so it can hurt demons) and the type of rifle ideal for such a bullet. Any suggestions?

Well you have a start in that you need to hurt demons. Now all you need to figure out is at what range, do you need to suppress them with automatic fire, will multiple hits do the job, do said demons wear armour, does the rifle need to be controllable in automatic fire from an upsippprted stance, how heavy can the rifle be, what sort of ammo load do you want? Etc etc.

IIRC the last major fiction work to deal with killing demons with modern militaries went with. 50 beowulf ARs.

While the Monster Hunter International series doesn't deal with daemons it does deal with monsters that are vulnerable to silver. They simply used .45 and 308, where there was a ball of silver held within the hollow point of a regular hollow point bullet iirc.