Infantry Discussion Thread part 11: Gallas Razor edition.

[Gallia-]

Some interesting numbers:

UH-60M - $6M
Mil-8 $9M
Mil-28 $17
Mil-26 $8
AH-1Z - $31M
CH-47F - $32M
Mil-24D - $36M
AH-64D - $61M

Interesting to see the Mi-26 so cheap. Usually void space costs a ridiculous amount, CH-53K costs about as much as a F-35 for example

might be the engines and composites

[The Akasha Colony]

Which is exactly what is needed in this case, an armed variant of a transport bird to support air assault operations so that valuable attack helicopters are free to engage in what attack helicopters do best.

DAP isn't for air assaults though. DAP is meant to support small-unit raids that might require more firepower than a door gun but which don't warrant calling in a full airmobile infantry unit for a real assault. If you're mounting an actual assault, it's time to call in the Apaches. Supporting air assault operations is literally one of the things they were designed to "do best." DAP was designed so that Green Beret or Delta teams don't have to steal Apaches from line units for support every time they conduct a raid. If the mission is hot enough to be considered an assault, it's probably not the sort of thing a small team would be doing, and not the sort of thing DAP is for, because it has the drawbacks we just discussed: it's rather fat for an attack helicopter, and isn't as well armored as a real attack helicopter like Apache.

If you need more attack helicopters, buy more attack helicopters.

[Crookfur]

In a reverse look at the above discussion, was the MH-60 a mistake? One of my puppets has a very limited number of dedicated attack birds, and a decent number of utility models and I was thinking of upgunning some Eurocopter Cougars.

IIRC the French spec ops cougars and caracals can all be fitted with a 20mm door gun plus gun and rocket pods buts pretty much just for the same limited operations as the AH-60 and MH-60s.

If you have the tooling and a license to produce cougars then developing a more in depth gunship modification would be an option if the procurement of additional dedicated attack helicopters would be problematic. Basically if you find yourself in a similar situation to where Romania or South afria were with the puma.

[Gallia-]

rooivalk took like 500 years to make tbf

[Crookfur]

rooivalk took like 500 years to make tbf

That's true.
I thought I could recall some sort of armed puma/oynx stop gap but that appears not to have been a thing.

Of course somehow Romania managed to beat South Africa in terms of both alouette and puma based gunships.

Airfox is still one of the sexiest little helos ever built.

[Gallia-]

there was a little boi thing but that was less a gunship and more like the sioux scout "gunship"

it had no sensors or anything iirc it was just a mocked up alouette with a giat 20mm and tandem seating

of all the dumbcopter babships i always liked the PENETRATOR because it's super dumb even among the dumbcopters

just has a 20mm ass blaster to dab on mi-24s or crop dust trenches or whatever lmao

[Ormata]

there was a little boi thing but that was less a gunship and more like the sioux scout "gunship"

it had no sensors or anything iirc it was just a mocked up alouette with a giat 20mm and tandem seating

of all the dumbcopter babships i always liked the PENETRATOR because it's super dumb even among the dumbcopters

just has a 20mm ass blaster to dab on mi-24s or crop dust trenches or whatever lmao

I just looked that up and just...

What the heck?

[Gallia-]

it was made by some semi-lunatic "entrepreneur" and now it lives in an airport

still flies though

[Post War America]

In a reverse look at the above discussion, was the MH-60 a mistake? One of my puppets has a very limited number of dedicated attack birds, and a decent number of utility models and I was thinking of upgunning some Eurocopter Cougars.

IIRC the French spec ops cougars and caracals can all be fitted with a 20mm door gun plus gun and rocket pods buts pretty much just for the same limited operations as the AH-60 and MH-60s.

If you have the tooling and a license to produce cougars then developing a more in depth gunship modification would be an option if the procurement of additional dedicated attack helicopters would be problematic. Basically if you find yourself in a similar situation to where Romania or South afria were with the puma.

Yeah its basically Romania but Spanish speaking so I'd be working with a similar situation.

[The Dolphin Isles]

The Aérospatiale Gazelle has some pretty amazing possible modifications. 68 mm unguided HE rockets, 20 mm cannon, or 2-6 ATGMS. I have even seen pictures of it with a door-mounted minigun and MANPAD missiles. The Eurocopter Fennec is in a similar boat as well as the previously mentioned Aérospatiale Alouette.

[The united American-Isreali empire]

I'd disagree. They are a jack of all trades that can be used as either an attack helicopter or a transport depending on what's needed at the time.

An entirely useless capability.

Mi-24 should have lost the wings and every bit of armament except the door guns. Improved armor would help but you'd be looking at UH-1 levels of troop movement. Not that that's bad by the standards of the time, I suppose. UH-60 was still a decade away, but by the time it shows up it's obviously the best assault transport in the world and remains a high level competitor.

I suspect fully well if it had been better on the engines it would of been my better. I grew up liking the idea. It is very verastile and a jack of all trades design.

[The Akasha Colony]

I suspect fully well if it had been better on the engines it would of been my better. I grew up liking the idea. It is very verastile and a jack of all trades design.

It already has more powerful engines than a Black Hawk or an Apache (both of which are newer aircraft, and the Black Hawk can carry more). But because it's so big and heavy, it still has worse performance than either of them.

The failure of the concept should be obvious given the fact that:

1. No one but the USSR bothered to introduce such an aircraft.
2. Even the Russians are retiring their Mi-24s and replacing them with regular transports and attack helicopters.

[Crookfur]

The Aérospatiale Gazelle has some pretty amazing possible modifications. 68 mm unguided HE rockets, 20 mm cannon, or 2-6 ATGMS. I have even seen pictures of it with a door-mounted minigun and MANPAD missiles. The Eurocopter Fennec is in a similar boat as well as the previously mentioned Aérospatiale Alouette.

Pretty much every light utility helicopter has similar capabilities.

Arming a light utility is a just about workable solution if you can't get hold of anything better but pretty much everyone with a reasonable budget has adopted a dedicated attack helicopter in the rough "medium twin' class to replace such solutions over the years.

[Danternoust]

Soviet Gigantomania was ... interesting. I wonder how concentrated production would have become if Khrushchev did not introduce modest reforms for regionalism.

Arming a light utility is a just about workable solution if you can't get hold of anything better but pretty much everyone with a reasonable budget has adopted a dedicated attack helicopter in the rough "medium twin' class to replace such solutions over the years.

Helicopters only work when they are out of range of small arms and on a battlefield with clear front lines.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Soviet Gigantomania was ... interesting. I wonder how concentrated production would have become if Khrushchev did not introduce modest reforms for regionalism.

Arming a light utility is a just about workable solution if you can't get hold of anything better but pretty much everyone with a reasonable budget has adopted a dedicated attack helicopter in the rough "medium twin' class to replace such solutions over the years.

Helicopters only work when they are out of range of small arms and on a battlefield with clear front lines.

Afghanistan disagrees. In the right hands, helicopters can function reasonably well while under fire.

[Korva]

I thought I could recall some sort of armed puma/oynx stop gap but that appears not to have been a thing.

It was a testbed or something.

[Gallia-]

An entirely useless capability.

Mi-24 should have lost the wings and every bit of armament except the door guns. Improved armor would help but you'd be looking at UH-1 levels of troop movement. Not that that's bad by the standards of the time, I suppose. UH-60 was still a decade away, but by the time it shows up it's obviously the best assault transport in the world and remains a high level competitor.

I suspect fully well if it had been better on the engines it would of been my better. I grew up liking the idea. It is very verastile and a jack of all trades design.

For its size it still has the best engines in the world in terms of power output.

It's just weighed down by stupid stub wings and large armament.

The Soviets stripped the wings off and beat the air speed record in like 1975.

Sadly they put them back on and lost the everything record.

[Puzikas]

Practically the Mi-24 only (post-1980) carried 3-6 man sticks, usually a machine gun team intended to establish a fire base for the Mi-8 and Ka-29

E: If it even carried them, which it sometimes did. Usually it just carried weapons

[Theodosiya]

Three engine utility/assault helicopter like AW-101, quite useful for everything except attack, yes? How it compares to UH-60?

[The Manticoran Empire]

Three engine utility/assault helicopter like AW-101, quite useful for everything except attack, yes? How it compares to UH-60?

The AW-101 is closer to the MH-53 than the UH-60. The UH-60 carries 2 crew, 2 gunners, and 11 troops/6 stretchers while the HM-1 version of the AW-101 carries 3-4 crew and between 26 troops/4 stretchers and 45 troops/16 stretchers. For comparison, the MH-53J carries 6 crew and between 37 and 55 troops.

[Triplebaconation]

It's somewhere between a UH-60 and CH-53, and closer to the UH-60 in most respects. Nobody's going to carry 45 troops around in a Merlin (standing room only!). 16-24 is more likely.

[The Manticoran Empire]

It's somewhere between a UH-60 and CH-53, and closer to the UH-60 in most respects. Nobody's going to carry 45 troops around in a Merlin (standing room only!). 16-24 is more likely.

That's why I had the range.

[Triplebaconation]

Hmm...the numbers on Wikipedia are (surprise!) wrong.

The HM1 could carry ten troops when it existed, the HM2 up to 16.

The cargo variants have more internal volume and a ramp, but the number of seats actually used will depend on whether the doors need to be kept clear or not for armament, so the range is from 18 (with two pintle-mounted machine guns) to 27 (no machine guns). The maximum number of seats is 40 in an extremely cramped high-density arrangement. It's demonstrated the ability to carry 55 standing unarmed personnel.

The CH-53 is an entirely different order of big, with about twice the cabin volume of a Merlin. They may be able to carry the same dudes on paper, but the difference is the CH-53 can actually deploy them in combat instead of carrying them around like a clown car.

[New Vihenia]

The CH-53 is an entirely different order of big, with about twice the cabin volume of a Merlin. They may be able to carry the same dudes on paper, but the difference is the CH-53 can actually deploy them in combat instead of carrying them around like a clown car.

Yeah, as the troop's gear does add some bulk.

[Turuma]

I hope this is the appropriate thread for such a question,

The bulk of my army is comprised of truck borne motorized infantry organized along the lines outlined in FM-100-63. With that in mind, are there any good books or other resources outlining tactics used by such forces? I'm in the process of writing up something detailing an infantry training and equipment modernization program my army undertook in the mid 2000s and I imagine allot of what that program would entail is dictated by the sort of tactics those forces would be using