Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[The Akasha Colony]

5.45mm is lighter than 5.56mm, but probably not by a huge amount.

There are other 5mm microcalibers but the only one other to see serious use is 5.8mm Chinese AFAIK, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one.

So small > large is what it comes down to?

You want the smallest, lightest round possible that still meets your minimum requirements. Because this allows you to carry more of this round than of a heavier round, and more ammunition is more useful than slightly increased kinetic energy or whatever.

[Crookfur]

5.45mm is lighter than 5.56mm, but probably not by a huge amount.

There are other 5mm microcalibers but the only one other to see serious use is 5.8mm Chinese AFAIK, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one.

So small > large is what it comes down to?

Nothing is that simple.

However 5.56 and 5.45mm have been heavily optimised for meeting the identified requirements of an infantry small arms cartrudge in the lightest possibke package.

Everything is a balance and a trade off and these rounds ate the best current compromises.


But really you should be using .75 ball for main line infantry and .625 for special types and cavalry because black powder is the coolest.

[Laritaia]

i went with 6.25mm CTA magic



but CTA doesn't work with regular actions so i may ditch it if i can't work out how to clear a push through falling chamber design

[Purpelia]

Well if we are sharing custom rounds there is my 5.5x42mm Purpelian. It's the best round in the 5mm range ever.

[Tule]

Looks like image intensifiers are getting to the point where they can show objects in color at a reasonable resolution however.

That isn't an image intensifier though.

Damn it, I knew it was too good to be true.

I need to step up my fact checking game.

Informative nevertheless, thanks.

[Crookfur]

i went with 6.25mm CTA magic

(Image)

but CTA doesn't work with regular actions so i may ditch it if i can't work out how to clear a push through falling chamber design

Just an extension on the rammer. Thats what I went for in my wankomatic caseless rifle and IIRC it's what the LSAT designs used.


Now of course as a true believer in the one holy church of the optimum intermediate I have come to realise that you can't force the way on the ignorant they have to find the gospel of Williams for themselves.

[Laritaia]

i went with 6.25mm CTA magic

(Image)

but CTA doesn't work with regular actions so i may ditch it if i can't work out how to clear a push through falling chamber design

Just an extension on the rammer. Thats what I went for in my wankomatic caseless rifle and IIRC it's what the LSAT designs used.


Now of course as a true believer in the one holy church of the optimum intermediate I have come to realise that you can't force the way on the ignorant they have to find the gospel of Williams for themselves.

optimum intermediate is kind of an oxymoron

[Fordorsia]

8

point

5

by

60

1900

to

present

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

8

point

5

by

60

1900

to

present

So you don't have the required rof to suppress an infantry company with M16's/G3's/SLR's. Gg I guess?

[Gallia-]

slr has like an rof of 20 rpm

shit gat

m16a1 is the only good one listed

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

slr has like an rof of 20 rpm

shit gat

m16a1 is the only good one listed

It's better than a 10 rpm bolt action rifle that fires shoulder-breaking ammo. Besides 3-round burst is dumb.

[Husseinarti]

slr has like an rof of 20 rpm

shit gat

m16a1 is the only good one listed

It's better than a 10 rpm bolt action rifle that fires shoulder-breaking ammo. Besides 3-round burst is dumb.

well the soviets issued full auto gats and they aren't around anymore

usa 1 ussr 0 3 round burst won the cold war

[Fordorsia]

8

point

5

by

60

1900

to

present

So you don't have the required rof to suppress an infantry company with M16's/G3's/SLR's. Gg I guess?

Support rifle and GPMG in each squad.

And the question of who suppresses the other isn't about how many rounds you can shoot as quickly as possible. It's about who starts firing first and keeps it going. My 8.5mm rifles may be a tiny bit slower with follow up shots that irl battle rifles, but volume doesn't affect suppression.

It's semi auto magazine fed rifle vs semi auto magazine fed rifle

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

It's better than a 10 rpm bolt action rifle that fires shoulder-breaking ammo. Besides 3-round burst is dumb.

well the soviets issued full auto gats and they aren't around anymore

usa 1 ussr 0 3 round burst won the cold war

A fine shitpost Sir Sandserbistaneestaneestan.

[Gallia-]

It's better than a 10 rpm bolt action rifle that fires shoulder-breaking ammo. Besides 3-round burst is dumb.

well the soviets issued full auto gats and they aren't around anymore

usa 1 ussr 0 3 round burst won the cold war

The USA's issuing of M16A1 happened to be during the 1950s through the 1970s.

Otherwise known as its extent of greatest political-economic clout over the world and arguably dominion/hegemony over the planet. This also happened to be the period of USSR's greatest world influence. Clearly, three round burst didn't lead to the collapse of the USSR, rather the pursuit of burst fire seems to be correlated strongly with the decline or outright collapse of empires.

AN-94 destroyed the USSR.

The USA is only kept alive because of the life blood of M16A3.

[Husseinarti]

5.45mm is lighter than 5.56mm, but probably not by a huge amount.

There are other 5mm microcalibers but the only one other to see serious use is 5.8mm Chinese AFAIK, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one.

So small > large is what it comes down to?

More or less everything comes to the fact that 5.45x39, 5.8xwhatever Chi-Com, and 5.56x45mm NATO all really do the same thing and do it well enough to be used in such large amounts.

I'm pretty certain that 5.8 only exists due to the Sino-Soviet split, however.

They all follow the same school of thought and are fired by weapons that are all more or less the same in the strategic mindset.

[Austrasien]

Now of course as a true believer in the one holy church of the optimum intermediate I have come to realise that you can't force the way on the ignorant they have to find the gospel of Williams for themselves.

[Kassaran]

Heavier = More complaining from people who have to carry the ammunition.

Ayyyyyy

It really does.

[Allanea]

5.45mm is lighter than 5.56mm, but probably not by a huge amount.

There are other 5mm microcalibers but the only one other to see serious use is 5.8mm Chinese AFAIK, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one.

So small > large is what it comes down to?

It's similar to how combat vehicles are designed.

You want your infantryman to be able to engage as many targets as possible without being resupplied. If your cartridge is not powerful enough to reliably disable (that's to say, injure in such a way that they can't continue the fight) enemy soldiers in the conditions in which you can reasonably expect the average infantryman to fight, then obviously your infantryman can't carry out his mission reliably, and may even get killed.

However if your cartridge is too large, then essentially any cartridge/firearm mass that doesn't contribute to accomplishing your mission is effectively wasted. If you have a cartridge that's, say, twice as powerful than a 5.56 but you can only carry half as many cartridges, you're actually having less effective firepower than you'd have with a 5.56, because you can only shoot half as many targets, suppress half as much territory with automatic fire, etc - and if I am shot with this hypothetical twice-larger cartridge, it's not going to be twice as effective at injuring/killing me.

In armored vehicles, this is called 'stowed kills' - how many other vehicles/bunkers/enemy infantry can the vehicle effectively shoot with its actual onboard ammunition capacity?

Now there may be circumstances when a larger round than 5.56 is desirable. If you are in an environment like Afghanistan, where soldiers often take shots at great distances where 5.56 would be less effective, or you opponent's troops wear very heavy body armor, or perhaps (this is not fully realistic but it does occur in NS and some people do accept it in their RPs) your opponent has troops that aren't fully human (in this thread we discussed giant sapient lizards for instance). But generally 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62x39 are fully adequate to 90% of scenarios wherein a longarm may be used.

[Kazarogkai]

Allanea

Your post sorta reminded me of something actually.

If going up against what are basically Krogans, below average intelligence but with certain physical advantages(regeneration, redundant organs, size, high birth rate), what would be the best way of taking them down? Sure artillery would probably do well, just like with humans. But in a rather close combat scenario like say a city what would you do if faced with one of those bastards?

[Ormata]

Allanea

Your post sorta reminded me of something actually.

If going up against what are basically Krogans, below average intelligence but with certain physical advantages(regeneration, redundant organs, size, high birth rate), what would be the best way of taking them down? Sure artillery would probably do well, just like with humans. But in a rather close combat scenario like say a city what would you do if faced with one of those bastards?

2 Gauge punt guns.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

I'm not sure the stowed kills analogy makes sense in infantry combat because the overwhelming majority of bullets never actually hit anyone (maybe snipers would be the exception). I wouldn't know the precise statistics off the top of my head but I would guess in your average firefight somewhere in between 99.9% and 99.99% of bullets don't hit anyone so even if you have some bullet that's like 10x as lethal as 5.56 99.9% of the time it would have no advantage. I also wound't know the exact statistic but like 80-90+% of all casualties in every conflict from WW1 onward were caused by explosive weapons like mortars and artillery shells, not bullets. So basically bullets are used to suppress the enemy and then high explosives are used to kill them. In that case you want to maximize the amount of lead you throw downrange (weight of fire > accuracy of fire) which means you want a smaller bullet that soldiers can carry more of. Now you obviously don't want to issue everyone .22s, you want to issue the smallest bullet that can reliably inflict casualties at typical combat ranges which leads you to rounds like 5.56x45 and 5.45x39.

[Theodosiya]

Allanea

Your post sorta reminded me of something actually.

If going up against what are basically Krogans, below average intelligence but with certain physical advantages(regeneration, redundant organs, size, high birth rate), what would be the best way of taking them down? Sure artillery would probably do well, just like with humans. But in a rather close combat scenario like say a city what would you do if faced with one of those bastards?

Big guns and virus.

[Kazarogkai]

I'm not sure the stowed kills analogy makes sense in infantry combat because the overwhelming majority of bullets never actually hit anyone (maybe snipers would be the exception). I wouldn't know the precise statistics off the top of my head but I would guess in your average firefight somewhere in between 99.9% and 99.99% of bullets don't hit anyone so even if you have some bullet that's like 10x as lethal as 5.56 99.9% of the time it would have no advantage. I also wound't know the exact statistic but like 80-90+% of all casualties in every conflict from WW1 onward were caused by explosive weapons like mortars and artillery shells, not bullets. So basically bullets are used to suppress the enemy and then high explosives are used to kill them. In that case you want to maximize the amount of lead you throw downrange (weight of fire > accuracy of fire) which means you want a smaller bullet that soldiers can carry more of. Now you obviously don't want to issue everyone .22s, you want to issue the smallest bullet that can reliably inflict casualties at typical combat ranges which leads you to rounds like 5.56x45 and 5.45x39.

So what your saying is.... grenades are good?

[Puzikas]

Now of course as a true believer in the one holy church of the optimum intermediate I have come to realise that you can't force the way on the ignorant they have to find the gospel of Williams for themselves.

Pfffft