NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[The Kievan People]

Not into the wind.

[Mitheldalond]

Not into the wind.

She can do 20 knots directly into the wind under engine power.

[The Kievan People]

That is not an argument for sails.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Not into the wind.

She can do 20 knots directly into the wind under engine power.

Then there's really no point having sails.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Not into the wind.

She can do 20 knots directly into the wind under engine power.

And a Cyclone-class patrol boat can d0 35 knots under the exact same conditions.

[Mitheldalond]

That is not an argument for sails.

True, the argument for sails would be that you don't need the engines to get around all the time. Sails do not consume fuel, and provide virtually unlimited range. If you're going to be spending a sizeable part of your time at sea under sail, you don't need to carry as much fuel. Which means you can either have a smaller ship, or use the extra space to store more food, water, etc. in either case, you'll have a ship with greater endurance than a normal ship of its size.

Also, using less fuel saves money on operating costs of the ship; wind is free after all. It's also much more environmentally friendly, though the military probably doesn't consider that a priority.

[Vitaphone Racing]

That is not an argument for sails.

True, the argument for sails would be that you don't need the engines to get around all the time. Sails do not consume fuel, and provide virtually unlimited range. If you're going to be spending a sizeable part of your time at sea under sail, you don't need to carry as much fuel. Which means you can either have a smaller ship, or use the extra space to store more food, water, etc. in either case, you'll have a ship with greater endurance than a normal ship of its size.

Also, using less fuel saves money on operating costs of the ship; wind is free after all. It's also much more environmentally friendly, though the military probably doesn't consider that a priority.

Sails consume space which is at a premium on any boat that isn't a luxury yacht or possibly an oil tanker.

[Imperializt Russia]

Speaking of radar though. How much effect would there actually be if we assume that the air defense network is being run as it should? Under normal conditions most radar units won't be on after all. You only turn them on to track and shoot something down once your other assets have spotted it.

The radar stations would probably survive the strike anyway, though with interference.
Their power supply would be what is crippled.

Not for ground warfare, no.
But I found this:
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_displ ... d=337&ct=2

Of course there is. The EMT-7 doesn't create an "electromagnetic pulse" in the NS sense, it just mimics the electromagnetic field of a moving tank. In the West similar devices are called magnetic signature duplicators and are fairly common. The wiki article makes it seem like advanced technology in testing but it's really old.

Would this have greater application for mine defence, or does it have additional applications?

An amendment to my early post that got quoted about the IR signature of Prop Fighters.

If this is 1950's with old Sidewinder using Lead Sulfide element seeker.. Prop fighter might be almost invisible because PbS sensing element is practically blind to anything colder than jet pipe.

But now.. It's the era of HgCdTe and InSb.. IR seeker can now "see" Aircraft's body, not necessarily need to aim for exhaust. So prop plane is in danger too.

In the future i'd expect multi-layered bandgap detector or QWIP that can work in both Short wave IR and Mid Wave.. Maybe Long wave too, without cooling 4 overkill.

While, all that is true, a few things I should have elaborated on, but didn’t.

1. Not all RP military powers are going to be using the latest and best toys nor probably knowing how to employ those toys in the most tactically efficient manner.
2. Does anyone disagree with the statement that a jet turbine engine will radiate a much bigger heat signature then a turboprop one? Combined, that with the use of flares at the right moment and that gives a nice advantage to the prop fighter especially with its better turning ability.
3. Not even modern IR guided missiles have a 100% pK rate.
4. On the aircraft’s body, most of that heat is generated from the large turbofans engines putting out all that thrust in addition to flying conditions the airframe is stressed under. Not eliminated completely in a prop fighter, but by my reasoning should be significantly reduced.
5. I have no doubt a prop fighter plane could be brought down by a IR guided missile, but by having a smaller heat signature located mostly in the front as well as being a smaller target to begin with that does present one’s enemy additional difficulties in bringing one down.

Almost all of a modern jet aircraft's signature will be directed away from the body skin itself to reduce heating of the airframe.

With a prop fighter, the exhaust is typically in the nose and will wash hot exhaust over the length of the airframe, giving heating over the aircraft skin. This is an issue faced by helicopters. Given Danton's suggestion that even the pilot may pose a target in a relatively "cold" target like a WWII prop fighter, this issue will be significant.

[Rich and Corporations]

The 7 metre rule is overstated. Think of it as a guideline, not a law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_5_15_cm_AA_Gun

Nine meters.
Nine tonnes.

[Triplebaconation]

Speaking of radar though. How much effect would there actually be if we assume that the air defense network is being run as it should? Under normal conditions most radar units won't be on after all. You only turn them on to track and shoot something down once your other assets have spotted it.

The radar stations would probably survive the strike anyway, though with interference.
Their power supply would be what is crippled.

Of course there is. The EMT-7 doesn't create an "electromagnetic pulse" in the NS sense, it just mimics the electromagnetic field of a moving tank. In the West similar devices are called magnetic signature duplicators and are fairly common. The wiki article makes it seem like advanced technology in testing but it's really old.

Would this have greater application for mine defence, or does it have additional applications?

An amendment to my early post that got quoted about the IR signature of Prop Fighters.



While, all that is true, a few things I should have elaborated on, but didn’t.

1. Not all RP military powers are going to be using the latest and best toys nor probably knowing how to employ those toys in the most tactically efficient manner.
2. Does anyone disagree with the statement that a jet turbine engine will radiate a much bigger heat signature then a turboprop one? Combined, that with the use of flares at the right moment and that gives a nice advantage to the prop fighter especially with its better turning ability.
3. Not even modern IR guided missiles have a 100% pK rate.
4. On the aircraft’s body, most of that heat is generated from the large turbofans engines putting out all that thrust in addition to flying conditions the airframe is stressed under. Not eliminated completely in a prop fighter, but by my reasoning should be significantly reduced.
5. I have no doubt a prop fighter plane could be brought down by a IR guided missile, but by having a smaller heat signature located mostly in the front as well as being a smaller target to begin with that does present one’s enemy additional difficulties in bringing one down.

Almost all of a modern jet aircraft's signature will be directed away from the body skin itself to reduce heating of the airframe.

With a prop fighter, the exhaust is typically in the nose and will wash hot exhaust over the length of the airframe, giving heating over the aircraft skin. This is an issue faced by helicopters. Given Danton's suggestion that even the pilot may pose a target in a relatively "cold" target like a WWII prop fighter, this issue will be significant.

I doubt the mysterious "Danton" would suggest such a thing, especially since he's well-known for mocking overhyped claims of sensor performance!

[Imperializt Russia]

Good point, since I misremembered and it was Galla.

[Questers]

I wasnt referring to the 7-metre rule.

[Mostrov]

I'm thinking of making a warship based on the Maltese Falcon yacht. Probably something like a Coast Guard cutter or a patrol boat, not a front line warship like a cruiser or destroyer.

Main user will be the Coast Guard, mostly for law enforcement in the economic zone and territorial waters.

What do you think of the idea?

Sail power isn't really a good option for coast guard cutters and patrol boats, even if it's just a secondary means of propulsion; a consistent ability to reach high speed is a necessity when a big part of your duty involves chasing down smugglers or hurrying over to help a vessel in distress.

If you want cool sailing ships in your modern navy, then use them in the same way real-life countries use them: as training ships. The cramped spaces and demanding manual labor will go a long way to prepare young land-lubber recruits for life at sea.

There is a good alternative for this, and that is mundane maintenance, for instance meteorology buoys and the like; so you can rotate the training groups in cadres with more experienced ones to offset the high manpower required and keep up efficiency. Ideal for oceanography. Of course you shouldn't go with a terrible expensive design like that when clippers were doing faster speeds in the 1850s.
It does depend on the sea though, Arctic ones I would be far more hesitant about. Ideal for something akin to the lower latitudes though, as presumably this is what the majority of NS oceans are like.

Not into the wind.

What and tacking doesn't exist?

[San-Silvacian]

I'm thinking of making a warship based on the Maltese Falcon yacht. Probably something like a Coast Guard cutter or a patrol boat, not a front line warship like a cruiser or destroyer.

Main user will be the Coast Guard, mostly for law enforcement in the economic zone and territorial waters.

What do you think of the idea?

oh yey sails totes are useful

>has engines

yah no

[Proskoya]

Question: is there any other sort of neat things you could do in the same principle as HESCOs? I guess what I'm asking is if HESCO barriers can come in anything other than big boxes or if there would be a good reason to have a variation of design.

[Allanea]

Hesco barriers are essentially larger, more advanced sandbags. Use sandbags to form more complicated shapes.

[Allanea]

Also, Glorious Comrade Wikipedia has delivered something much better than a mere "box" HESCO:

A new system of Hesco Bastion concertainer developed specially for military use is deployed from a container, which is dragged along the line of ground where the barrier is to be formed, unfolding up to several hundred metres of barrier ready for filling within minutes.[9]

PS:

Messing around on Youtube showed these amazing things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_lsmE_EwEE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_lsmE_EwEE

This is most amazing.

[Rich and Corporations]

Hesco barriers are essentially larger, more advanced sandbags. Use sandbags to form more complicated shapes.

http://concretecloth.milliken.com/Pages ... tions.aspx
Blah, it's just going to get blown up anyway. Why have complicated shapes?

[Korouse]

Hesco barriers are essentially larger, more advanced sandbags. Use sandbags to form more complicated shapes.

http://concretecloth.milliken.com/Pages ... tions.aspx
Blah, it's just going to get blown up anyway. Why have complicated shapes?

Sloping.

[Kouralia]

Would Company-Level Assault Pioneers likely carry with them ladders strong and tall enough to get up to the third floor (American style. 2nd Floor, Europe) of a building?

[Padnak]

Assuming they have access to trucks and that sort of thing, there's no reason for them not to

[The Corparation]

On the subject of modern sailing vessels, could sails have a place aboard a modern day Q-ship for use in anti-piracy?

[The Kievan People]

On the subject of modern sailing vessels, could sails have a place aboard a modern day Q-ship for use in anti-piracy?

Why...?

Ships carry more than enough fuel for most practical purposes. Not everything needs to have INFINITE RANGE.

[Spirit of Hope]

On the subject of modern sailing vessels, could sails have a place aboard a modern day Q-ship for use in anti-piracy?

Why not just use a regular cargo ship with some marines on it? It could also carry cargo and not waste space on sails and require the additional training to use them.

[The Corparation]

On the subject of modern sailing vessels, could sails have a place aboard a modern day Q-ship for use in anti-piracy?

Why...?

Ships carry more than enough fuel for most practical purposes. Not everything needs to have INFINITE RANGE.

To help give the appearance of a luxury yacht.

Not for infinite range. For looks. At any rate it's not something I see as a serious idea, just a random thought.

On the subject of modern sailing vessels, could sails have a place aboard a modern day Q-ship for use in anti-piracy?

Why not just use a regular cargo ship with some marines on it? It could also carry cargo and not waste space on sails and require the additional training to use them.

Because rule of cool.