Illinois raises the personal income tax by 67%

[Sibirsky]

They've been telling me that in right-to work states people are treated like slaves.

Maybe abused more then the non right-to-work states. There are far more bad managers then good. When times are bad, there is this air of I don't have to be a nice because they can't jump jobs right away. I have seen this more then once especially when the base salaries for a classification have dropped.

One thing that has always struck me are the people who think they can hire and fire on a whim and then bitch about peoples loyalties to the company.

People complain about unions but they fail to realize that unions are the fault of management. A properly management company does not need a union. People wouldn't want it.

Unions have their own problems. Too many of their elite have taken to "free market" mentality or more of a corruption of it. My father-in-law was in one for 35 years. Electrician and he even says they are not what they were. However, he will not say they were bad. In fact in some bad times, the union did prevent him from losing his house in a bad economic time.

Are we better off without unions? Not really. Too many fuck nuts in high places. People who worship profit above all else.

My current company will never have a unions. Well while the two founders are currently running things. They have this crazy idea of making the work force happy. Help then achieve dreams and goals. Is an older company as they don't toss workers simply because they cost too much and or are old(ie college kids are cheaper because they cost less). When it compes to layoffs, it's the bottom 1.3 % of performers who go. If there was a mass layoff it was only because times were really screwed and there was no other choice an all other options were exercised.

They have many other crazy ideas that management and execs get rewards for performance and not simply because they have a title.

So what do they get out of all this. A workforce that works hard; looks for ways to save money; hourly workers who actually donate a couple hours to the company just because. People who donate time to the community and it encouraged by the company.

Did I mention the company is a multi-billion and is all over the world? During the turn around economy; we were buying companies.

Not bad for two guys who didn't buy into the holy region of completely free market capitalism.

Those kind of companies are unique, but growing in number.

[Xomic]

Couldn't we just mandate Hydrogen be sold at Gas Stations? Then more people would buy Hydrogen Cars instead of E-85 FlexFuel Cars that actually emit more Pollution than Regular Gasoline. I once heard a GM exec on CNBC say they could kill the Internal Combustion Engine overnight and switch to all Hydrogen, if only it was available everywhere.

Hydrogen is, from my understanding, hard to store.

[Shrillland]

Couldn't we just mandate Hydrogen be sold at Gas Stations? Then more people would buy Hydrogen Cars instead of E-85 FlexFuel Cars that actually emit more Pollution than Regular Gasoline. I once heard a GM exec on CNBC say they could kill the Internal Combustion Engine overnight and switch to all Hydrogen, if only it was available everywhere.

Hydrogen is, from my understanding, hard to store.

There are still Gas Stations that have it, mostly in California. And Honda's made a portable Hydrogen Fuel Generator, the problem is it's still outrageously expensive at the moment.

[Sibirsky]

I don't care about the minimum wage. I want median or average incomes for all non public sector employees between right-to-work an union states.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20030623ar01p1.htm

It is a little old I admit, but a report from the BLS from 2009 says the Median Weekly earnings are $905 on average for Union Workers, compared to $710 for Non-union Workers.

Recent enough.

[The Black Forrest]

Employees certainly get less money and benefits, and have less power over their situation. Here in Illinois we have one of the Highest Minimum Wages in the Country, one of the most Skilled Work forces, and a better wage-to-price ratio than most States. It's a bad Ratio at the moment, but only because the National Economy's tanked.

They get less b/c they aren't entitled to higher wages simply for breathing.

I wish that extended to management. I have seen more then a few people pulling down big salaries for basically warming a seat.

*snip*

Sibirsky employes men and women who voluntarily seek out the wages he offers. They are better off than they would have been without the wages he offers. Right to work simply means that they are not fooled into believing that they own the job that Sibirsky provides them.

You make it sound like Sib is doing them a favor.

A sense of ownership makes a person want to do more then is expected. Ever measure the output of people where the mentality of the management is "your reward is your job"

[Sibirsky]

Eh, last I heard we didn't in Q3 last year but I'm not sure.

I meant in general over the past 8 years or so. At one point, LSE was outnumbering NYSE at non US, non UK IPOS 3 or 4 to 1.

[Xomic]

They're the ones that created the loopholes.

And when the government tries to close them, we see lobbyists lobby them out of it.

To solve the debt crisis, taxes are going to need to be raised, and holes are going to need to be closed.

Most corporations are not breaking any tax laws.

I never said they're breaking them.

[Sibirsky]

But they do relocate for many various reasons and an increase in taxes could make them relocate. Can't deny that. You can claim that you think, this particular tax will not do anything as far as relocations. And you may be right. But you cannot claim that it's simply not possible.

Depends on the size of the company and it's configuration. If you are the central office and have a global WAN, you can't simply pick up and go just because of a tax hike. Add in the type of work performed and the personal loss.

Not always a simple process.

I didn't say it was a simple process.

[Natapoc]

Haha! I LIVE IN TEXAS WHERE THERE IS NO STATE INCOME TAX!! BEAT THAT!!!

Yeah, but... it's Texas. Terrible tradeoff IMO.

Indeed, in Washington state we also have no state income tax but a much better standard of living But please don't move here. Just visit, spend your money, and go home.

[The Southron Nation]

Employers do not treat their employees as slaves. How would they entice people to work for them? Would they have to hold guns to a possible employees head? What if they employ 3 people or more? An employer only possesses 2 arms. No one is forced to work against their wishes.

If the Employee has been out of work for a long time, and has bills piling up, they'll take whatever jobs they can get, including crappy jobs. Their low salaries mean they can never save enough money to quit their job and find another, and if their hours are poor, searching for another job while employed is nearly impossible, thus meaning they'll never be able to leave their crappy jobs.

So yes, the employer does hold a metaphorical gun to their employee's heads.

bullshit.

if they were unemployed before they became employed, then the employer increased their standard of living by employing them. they made no money before they got the job. they make money now. they are better off than before.

there is no gun.

[Sibirsky]

Yes the future can wait. So you lower taxes (and lessen regulatory burdens) to bring businesses and people into the state. They will pay taxes in the future, lowering your deficit.

Alternatively, you can just raise taxes, thinking you will bring in more revenue. If it goes up, it won't be the $6.8 billion they expect. I bet it actually goes down.

You're on. I bet you a cookie each way, that their revenues go up.

One year from now, Sibirsky. Although budgets aren't finalised until all the reciepts are in, the budget estimates should be enough to say whether revenue went up or down.

Of course, this tax increase might not pass, but otherwise it's a bet!

Virtual cookie?

The tax increase did pass, and the governor promised to sign it as soon as he gets it.

[Shrillland]

Yeah, but... it's Texas. Terrible tradeoff IMO.

Indeed, in Washington state we also have no state income tax but a much better standard of living But please don't move here. Just visit, spend your money, and go home.

But people visit Washington State. Tourism is non-existent in Illinois, except for some that visit Chicago. We also depend too much on the Casinos for making money, infact part of this year's budget includes increasing the number of Casino Licences from 10 to 14.

[Sibirsky]

Who decides what you rightfully deserve?

You do. You decide if you're better than what people treat you as, and if they treat you like dirt, like many employers do(and I've seen it happen), how long would you put up with it before you decide that you deserve better?

I decide I am worth $2 billion per year. Now what?

My boss is annoying, but actually very nice. I don't have these issues.

[President Mathias]

Trillions in debt? Have you not been aware of government borrowing lately?

Have you been aware that large corporations use loop holes to avoid paying much of their taxes? Oh certainly governments have borrowed and spent, and yet had they been able to collect the taxes properly owed to them, they wouldn't have nearly as deep of debt.

The Government will be out of debt when it stops trying to control everything. Have low taxes, less restrictions on corporations and businesses, have a the same tax for everyone across the board. Right now our GOVERNMENT punishes hard work that and REWARDS laziness. They tax he who works his f---ing a-- off to build his business, then give that cash to the guy who sits in his front lawn and drinks beer on the governments bill! Don't you even f---ing tell me that's unrealistic neither. I watch year round as the my mothers family, typical rednecks, get unemployment and other welfare, then waste time not even looking for a job. I watch as it happens in neighborhoods all over the place. We need to Reward hard work and punish laziness. That's what America has forgotten, and that's why were f---ing screwed.

[Shrillland]

If the Employee has been out of work for a long time, and has bills piling up, they'll take whatever jobs they can get, including crappy jobs. Their low salaries mean they can never save enough money to quit their job and find another, and if their hours are poor, searching for another job while employed is nearly impossible, thus meaning they'll never be able to leave their crappy jobs.

So yes, the employer does hold a metaphorical gun to their employee's heads.

bullshit.

if they were unemployed before they became employed, then the employer increased their standard of living by employing them. they made no money before they got the job. they make money now. they are better off than before.

there is no gun.

There is however the Chain that keeps them there, with no way out.

[Sibirsky]

Not of this tax increase becomes permanent. Which is possible.

It's unlikely even if the tax increase became permanent, which is itself unlikely because a) they've stated it will be temporary, b) their Chamber of Commerce seems very put off by the increase, and c) they only need it to claw themselves out of debt. The natural cycle has the government lowering taxes during economic growth periods, even considering governments love a fat budget.

You have so much faith in government.

The last time Illinois introduced a temporary tax was in 1992. By 1993 it was permanent.

[Sibirsky]

I did say corn ethanol is bad.

Never heard of ethanol from oil from hemp seeds. I wouldn't be surprised if it was really efficient. Problem is, hemp is illegal in the states.

Couldn't we just mandate Hydrogen be sold at Gas Stations? Then more people would buy Hydrogen Cars instead of E-85 FlexFuel Cars that actually emit more Pollution than Regular Gasoline. I once heard a GM exec on CNBC say they could kill the Internal Combustion Engine overnight and switch to all Hydrogen, if only it was available everywhere.

But both the infrastructure and cars are expensive.

[Shrillland]

You do. You decide if you're better than what people treat you as, and if they treat you like dirt, like many employers do(and I've seen it happen), how long would you put up with it before you decide that you deserve better?

I decide I am worth $2 billion per year. Now what?

My boss is annoying, but actually very nice. I don't have these issues.

That's fortunate, as most other people do have real Assholes running their Workplaces. You are lucky enough to have a decent Boss.

Well you do have to be realistic. You can ask to increase your wages by just $4-5 an hour, and that will help you save money and be able to live a little more comfortably.

[Shrillland]

Couldn't we just mandate Hydrogen be sold at Gas Stations? Then more people would buy Hydrogen Cars instead of E-85 FlexFuel Cars that actually emit more Pollution than Regular Gasoline. I once heard a GM exec on CNBC say they could kill the Internal Combustion Engine overnight and switch to all Hydrogen, if only it was available everywhere.

But both the infrastructure and cars are expensive.

Not once they are mass-produced.

[Xomic]

they made no money before they got the job.

But they did spend money, from, say, their savings. As their savings decreases over time, and the individual can't find work, their standards for their work become lower and lower, until they get hired, usually at a job that doesn't pay enough for them to really save.

Since they can't save, they can't quit to find another job that pays better, since they have nothing to fall back on.

[Shrillland]

Have you been aware that large corporations use loop holes to avoid paying much of their taxes? Oh certainly governments have borrowed and spent, and yet had they been able to collect the taxes properly owed to them, they wouldn't have nearly as deep of debt.

The Government will be out of debt when it stops trying to control everything. Have low taxes, less restrictions on corporations and businesses, have a the same tax for everyone across the board. Right now our GOVERNMENT punishes hard work that and REWARDS laziness. They tax he who works his f---ing a-- off to build his business, then give that cash to the guy who sits in his front lawn and drinks beer on the governments bill! Don't you even f---ing tell me that's unrealistic neither. I watch year round as the my mothers family, typical rednecks, get unemployment and other welfare, then waste time not even looking for a job. I watch as it happens in neighborhoods all over the place. We need to Reward hard work and punish laziness. That's what America has forgotten, and that's why were f---ing screwed.

Governments will never be out of debt. The only time we were was when Jackson killed the Federal Reserve, and that led to our first Depression in 1836.

[The Black Forrest]

Depends on the size of the company and it's configuration. If you are the central office and have a global WAN, you can't simply pick up and go just because of a tax hike. Add in the type of work performed and the personal loss.

Not always a simple process.

I didn't say it was a simple process.

Indeed. It was more of a statement for those who say tax increases = mass flight of companies.

Like I said brain is tired today. Had to dig through packets today. Had an engineer doing naughty things on the Network and of course he thought he was smarter then everybody else

[Xomic]

Have you been aware that large corporations use loop holes to avoid paying much of their taxes? Oh certainly governments have borrowed and spent, and yet had they been able to collect the taxes properly owed to them, they wouldn't have nearly as deep of debt.

The Government will be out of debt when it stops trying to control everything. Have low taxes, less restrictions on corporations and businesses, have a the same tax for everyone across the board. Right now our GOVERNMENT punishes hard work that and REWARDS laziness. They tax he who works his f---ing a-- off to build his business, then give that cash to the guy who sits in his front lawn and drinks beer on the governments bill! Don't you even f---ing tell me that's unrealistic neither. I watch year round as the my mothers family, typical rednecks, get unemployment and other welfare, then waste time not even looking for a job. I watch as it happens in neighborhoods all over the place. We need to Reward hard work and punish laziness. That's what America has forgotten, and that's why were f---ing screwed.

[North Suran]

I think it will fail.

I am shocked, shocked to discover that Sibirsky thinks that raising taxes to balance finances will fail!

[Sremski okrug]

Have you been aware that large corporations use loop holes to avoid paying much of their taxes? Oh certainly governments have borrowed and spent, and yet had they been able to collect the taxes properly owed to them, they wouldn't have nearly as deep of debt.

The Government will be out of debt when it stops trying to control everything. Have low taxes, less restrictions on corporations and businesses, have a the same tax for everyone across the board. Right now our GOVERNMENT punishes hard work that and REWARDS laziness. They tax he who works his f---ing a-- off to build his business, then give that cash to the guy who sits in his front lawn and drinks beer on the governments bill! Don't you even f---ing tell me that's unrealistic neither. I watch year round as the my mothers family, typical rednecks, get unemployment and other welfare, then waste time not even looking for a job. I watch as it happens in neighborhoods all over the place. We need to Reward hard work and punish laziness. That's what America has forgotten, and that's why were f---ing screwed.

Of course. Your personal experiences ring true for the entire United States. You know what the evidence actually proves, that when rich people get tax breaks, for example the bush tax cuts. Instead of investing it in the United States economy they either hide it away or use it creating jobs overseas.

Stop watching Faux news and open your eyes.