[Scrapped]

[Bottle]

For my 1700th post, I figured I'd talk about something that I feel would help facilitate a better sense of justice in public schools; surveillance cameras.

...

What do you think?

I think this is a well-constructed and thoughtful topic. GOOD WORK!

[Galloism]

For my 1700th post, I figured I'd talk about something that I feel would help facilitate a better sense of justice in public schools; surveillance cameras.

...

What do you think?

I think this is a well-constructed and thoughtful topic. GOOD WORK!

Sometimes... I never know.

[Bottle]

I think this is a well-constructed and thoughtful topic. GOOD WORK!

Sometimes... I never know.

Haha...in this case, quite serious. I am quick to let Hay know when he's posting boring bloggy crap, so I want to be equally quick to reinforce good behaviors.

[Anarcho Phanafia]

There already are surveillance cameras in public schools. There are cameras at my school in every hall I walk into and frankly I think it is an invasion of privacy. You wouldn't need the cameras if teachers would do their job. Actually, there wouldn't be a huge hype of "anti-bullying" going on right now if the teachers were doing their job right and actually teaching and educating kids with neccesary cirriculum. I hate how most people think cracking down on the students is going to prevent bullying. Newsflash people, teachers can be bullies too. Calling out and humiliating students for not doing homework, screaming at kids for talking, giving out detentions for stupid reasons. It affects kids pyschologically and negatively, shouldn't it be considered bullying? When a kid kills himself they blame it on the class bully, but I'm sure in many cases it is his fear of failure to suceed because of the pressure that is put on him by his teachers.

So let me get this straight:
Teachers shouldn't remind students that not doing their homework affects their grades.
Teachers should never get upset the four thousandth time they tell the same student to stop interrupting the lesson with their incessant nattering on about girls, boys, parties, phones, clothes, who's gay, who's a retard, who they'd bang, et cetera.
Teachers should not give out detentions for being rude, disruptive, abusive....


Yeah. It's clearly the teacher's fault.

Are you serious? I'm talking about kids that actually have intelligence but it isn't being recognized by the teachers because they are too busy judging them on how many of their advanced algebra worksheets they got done. You don't understand the struggle of modern education because you are not part of it. I am. It affects kids emotionally and causes them to react with terrible things like killing themselves or others when they have to kiss the ass of 7 different teachers and do work for them for absolutley no pay. Sure it increases your grade, but it is also a pain in the ass. Homework is completely unneccesary considering the few hours kids are allowed to go home they are forced to do work, which is what they have been doing for the last 6/7 hours. Don't you think they should be able to spend time with their family and friends? I am not talking about "Oh finish this, finish that, homework done in less than an hour." I'm talking about book reports, packets, projects, and worksheets for 7 different classes every day. And then when a kid can't manage to finish all that, he goes to school the next day and gets humiliated by the teacher, as well as a detention. There are even instances when the teacher will say something like "if everyone finishes their homework, we will have a pizza party." and then the whole class except for one student did thier homework. That one student gets picked on and humiliated.

Also, students don't just get detention for things like disruptive behavior, they get detention for things like talking quitely, not fully completing a homework assignment, not having their shoes tied in gym, not having a written and signed excuse for being absent/late, ect. Its not as simple as you view it to be when you think "There is nothing wrong with the education system. Just do your homework and pay attention and your dandy." It really makes me sick when I hear that kind of crap.

[Anarcho Phanafia]

Big brother is watching you.
Why not have cameras in every toilet, street corner, home and workplace?
When does it stop? America is well and truly on the path of becoming a police state.

This.

[Katganistan]

Big brother is watching you.
Why not have cameras in every toilet, street corner, home and workplace?
When does it stop? America is well and truly on the path of becoming a police state.

Hey, I work in a NYC public school with a student pop of nearly 4000. And no, it's not Stuyvesant or Bronx High School of Science or any of the other massive magnet schools. There are NO cameras inside the school, except in photography -- and those are SLRs in the hands of students.

I wonder what hellholes others go to that they need cameras inside their schools.

[Horsefish]

I think our school has some cameras. And even then only in two places outside the class, to help dissuade people from leaving at luch.

I think their fake though.. :/

[Katganistan]

IIRC it was not that they entered the classroom while the teacher was not there, but that the teacher had to leave for a brief moment with the students already there. I just do not remember exactly why.

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

Hell yeah. That's why you call for another adult to come look in at the door, or you line the students up in the hallway and lock the door so that they are in full view while you handle what needs handling. The former being MUCH much more what you want to do than the latter.

[Katganistan]

The teacher could get sued then. If something happens and a student gets injured while he's not there, he will get sued for negligence.

Exactly, which is why every school except Hayteria's does not allow this.

Schools do not allow you to leave students for whom you are responsible unsupervised.
Schools also do not allow you to leave a classroom unlocked because it's easy for students to hurt each other out of view.

[Katganistan]

I had 31 children in my class last year. At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious: if you expect me to provide an education for 31 children, I will need the resources to cater for 31 children.

But some resources, like textbooks, seem to me to suggest a wasteful approach to education anyway. Like I asked earlier, why can't they just use a combination of online and class notes, or something like that? What's the need of textbooks if they cover pretty much the same subjects as are covered in class anyway?

.....

That you even question the need for something as elementary as a text book for every child is horrifying.

[Katganistan]

So let me get this straight:
Teachers shouldn't remind students that not doing their homework affects their grades.
Teachers should never get upset the four thousandth time they tell the same student to stop interrupting the lesson with their incessant nattering on about girls, boys, parties, phones, clothes, who's gay, who's a retard, who they'd bang, et cetera.
Teachers should not give out detentions for being rude, disruptive, abusive....


Yeah. It's clearly the teacher's fault.

Are you serious? I'm talking about kids that actually have intelligence but it isn't being recognized by the teachers because they are too busy judging them on how many of their advanced algebra worksheets they got done. You don't understand the struggle of modern education because you are not part of it. I am. It affects kids emotionally and causes them to react with terrible things like killing themselves or others when they have to kiss the ass of 7 different teachers and do work for them for absolutley no pay. Sure it increases your grade, but it is also a pain in the ass. Homework is completely unneccesary considering the few hours kids are allowed to go home they are forced to do work, which is what they have been doing for the last 6/7 hours. Don't you think they should be able to spend time with their family and friends? I am not talking about "Oh finish this, finish that, homework done in less than an hour." I'm talking about book reports, packets, projects, and worksheets for 7 different classes every day. And then when a kid can't manage to finish all that, he goes to school the next day and gets humiliated by the teacher, as well as a detention. There are even instances when the teacher will say something like "if everyone finishes their homework, we will have a pizza party." and then the whole class except for one student did thier homework. That one student gets picked on and humiliated.

Also, students don't just get detention for things like disruptive behavior, they get detention for things like talking quitely, not fully completing a homework assignment, not having their shoes tied in gym, not having a written and signed excuse for being absent/late, ect. Its not as simple as you view it to be when you think "There is nothing wrong with the education system. Just do your homework and pay attention and your dandy." It really makes me sick when I hear that kind of crap.

I'm not part of modern education?
Pardon me while I ignore the rest of your whiny "it doesn't relate to me and my life" rant.
Good luck in college and in the world of work -- you're gonna LOVE them.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

If schools don't have the money for basic needs like supplies and the like, I seriously doubt they have the money for surveillance systems.

As for who's responsible for what, sure. You'll run into teachers who should likely be doing something else as a career. You'll also run into a good many who have a vested interest in their student's well-being and success - moreso than the other, has been my experience. Teachers don't get paid so much or have such great jobs putting up with a bunch of disrespectful, disruptive kids that the majority is made up of people who don't like working with kids, believe it or not. Quite the opposite. I've worked in schools, I've seen it firsthand, you would not believe the limitations put on them that allow kids to get away with things they shouldn't, right up to physical abuse and endangerment.

There's changes needed, no doubt about it. But what's wrong with expecting just a little bit more personal responsibility for the majority of people involved here? That's right - the students. Individually. As a group. No bullying or bad behavior, no need for increasingly complex systems to try and balance stopping it, and catering to all the bleeding hearts out there who insist we can't blame the child for their poor choices and wrong-headedness.

If a teacher is out of line, it should be dealt with. If a student is out of line, it also should be dealt with. The problem we run into is too little funding, too little coverage all too often to properly handle large populations of students, too little ability to effectively deal with problems due to administrative limitations placed on teachers in far too many circumstances, and too damn many kids being outright little monsters when they too could be making better choices.

[Anarcho Phanafia]

Are you serious? I'm talking about kids that actually have intelligence but it isn't being recognized by the teachers because they are too busy judging them on how many of their advanced algebra worksheets they got done. You don't understand the struggle of modern education because you are not part of it. I am. It affects kids emotionally and causes them to react with terrible things like killing themselves or others when they have to kiss the ass of 7 different teachers and do work for them for absolutley no pay. Sure it increases your grade, but it is also a pain in the ass. Homework is completely unneccesary considering the few hours kids are allowed to go home they are forced to do work, which is what they have been doing for the last 6/7 hours. Don't you think they should be able to spend time with their family and friends? I am not talking about "Oh finish this, finish that, homework done in less than an hour." I'm talking about book reports, packets, projects, and worksheets for 7 different classes every day. And then when a kid can't manage to finish all that, he goes to school the next day and gets humiliated by the teacher, as well as a detention. There are even instances when the teacher will say something like "if everyone finishes their homework, we will have a pizza party." and then the whole class except for one student did thier homework. That one student gets picked on and humiliated.

Also, students don't just get detention for things like disruptive behavior, they get detention for things like talking quitely, not fully completing a homework assignment, not having their shoes tied in gym, not having a written and signed excuse for being absent/late, ect. Its not as simple as you view it to be when you think "There is nothing wrong with the education system. Just do your homework and pay attention and your dandy." It really makes me sick when I hear that kind of crap.

I'm not part of modern education?
Pardon me while I ignore the rest of your whiny "it doesn't relate to me and my life" rant.
Good luck in college and in the world of work -- you're gonna LOVE them.

If you didn't read the rest of my post, you don't understand the point I was making. I highly reccomend you read it if you want a fair arguement.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

If you didn't read the rest of my post, you don't understand the point I was making. I highly reccomend you read it if you want a fair arguement.

Funny thing. My kid manages to handle it, and socialize just fine. And we happen to be in a very good school district with high standards, and a high percentage of graduation, and college attendance after.

Manage your time better. If there's actual abuses going on, get parents involved and get it sorted. And take responsibility for your own actions or inaction - that tends to be key. And while you're at it, don't try to tell a teacher they aren't a part of the modern education system and expect to be taken seriously. Just some suggestions.

[Anarcho Phanafia]

If you didn't read the rest of my post, you don't understand the point I was making. I highly reccomend you read it if you want a fair arguement.

Funny thing. My kid manages to handle it, and socialize just fine. And we happen to be in a very good school district with high standards, and a high percentage of graduation, and college attendance after.

Manage your time better. If there's actual abuses going on, get parents involved and get it sorted. And take responsibility for your own actions or inaction - that tends to be key. And while you're at it, don't try to tell a teacher they aren't a part of the modern education system and expect to be taken seriously. Just some suggestions.

I meant they aren't gonig through the modern education system as a student. People have to put themselves in our shoes.

[Dazchan]

Um... I use the textbook as one of my teaching strategies to cover the content in class. What did you think they were, paperweights?

Question is, do the STUDENTS need the textbooks themselves?

They're pretty ineffective as a teaching tool if the students don't have them.

Thirty out of the thirty-one students I had last year. The other one was on a special learning program and had work tailored to his needs.

You really sure you should assume every that student outside the special learning program actually read the assigned textbook sections?

100% positive, having supervised them working and marked their work, including work from the textbooks, over the school year.

What level of school are you teaching? And what subject?

Year 4. English, Maths, PD/H/PE, Computers, Creative Arts and Japanese last year. This year I get to teach Science as well.

Well, a surveillance camera would provide a safety net in the unlikely event that I break the law and leave a bunch of kids unsupervised.

Or that they do something while your back is turned, such as when you are writing on the board. Or that they do something in the hallway. Or that they do something in the playground that teachers happened not to see. Leaving kids unsupervised is not the only circumstance in which surveillance cameras would come in handy. Hell, even putting aside the idea of cameras in classrooms, what about limited placement of cameras, in specific areas like certain hallways or the cafeteria?

I rarely turn my back on the class, because I know my students. Yet another advantage of the IWBs is that I only have to write on it in real time when I'm recording student responses. Everything else is planned ahead of time and thrown up as needed.

My estimate included cameras outside the classroom. Probably not as much as you'd need for it to work effectively, but the costs had blown out to almost a year's salary for a beginning teacher. I would also like to point out that our students are supervised in the playground, just like in the classroom, so very little happens that we're not aware of/dealing with as it is.

On the other hand, a computer allows me to challenge and extend my gifted students, provide remedial support of my lower-ability students

It also would be helpful if each group of people had better protection from bullying and the like, seeing as how both groups tend to be targeted by bullies. o.o

And yet you still haven't convinced me that a camera would protect anyone. Reading this thread shows otherwise. Given the ineffectiveness of the cameras, I'd rather that money be spent on something that has an academic purpose, which is the primary reason students are at schools, after all.

give students access to information that I can't personally provide

Why could they not use the computers at home? Or for the few who do not have computers at home, why is the computer lab not sufficient for this kind of stuff?

Because you only get 30-60 minutes (depending on grade level) a week in the computer lab, and that time is dedicated to teaching computer skills. Everything else (publishing, on-the-spot research, etc) is done in the classroom.

Teaching is a lot better with an IWB. The students are more attentive

To the material, or to the IWB?

You tell me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ptR7oXFw9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCfmJCSAG70

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you merely didn't see my edit to the earlier post, where I provided the costing for kitting out my school with cameras.

That was according to a private security company. Why not hire public engineers to come up with some alternative means of surveillance instead?

Paying someone to develop a solution that's been around for decades? Wow. Just... wow. I'm arguing about the cost being prohibitive, and you're adding expense with every keystroke.

It varies from place to place, but where I am, it's a four-year university degree, followed by a one-year probationary period, during which you have to put together a body of evidence to show that you apply the elements of quality teaching in your practice. Then after that, you have to do 100 hours of professional development every five years, 50 of which have to be from a specific list of courses.

Why couldn't they come up with a simpler way of proving teaching abilities than that?

Pointless question. The fact is that it's a professional requirement, and it would be better to ensure that schools are adequately funded for this (I had to pay the majority of this cost out of my own pocket because my school couldn't) than to install a bunch of cameras.

Likewise, bullying is an umbrella term that we use for various forms of behaviour.

Right, but maybe if those who engage in such behaviour were better convinced that they would be caught and that real punishments would result, they might be more inclined to back off.

You think so? Read the thread.

Teachers deter a lot of bullying, more than you'd be prepared to give us credit for. There is no easy solution, which is why we work so hard.

Fair enough, I should probably be more appreciative of your current efforts. I just feel frustrated that this problem is so rampant and have to wonder what might be more effective than whatever we have tried so far.

What you need to realise is that cameras are not a novel solution. Schools have tried them in the past, and many of the posters in this thread have first hand experience, which you seem intent on dismissing.

My school has them, but I don't really care... Now if we want to fuck around we just leave the school site.

My school already has surveillance cameras. They didn't stop me from getting a black eye before Christmas in '09.

Actually, it's just another cost that adds absolutely nothing. We had two bomb threats that year, and we caught one of them because the student in question had yakked about it beforehand. Big help those surveillance cameras were.

most times the cameras aren't checked, and don't provide much in the way of proof. You can see who threw the first punch, if you're lucky and the angle is just right.

My school has them, however the administration there is too lazy to actually check the cameras when something happens. They just use the cameras as a way to threaten us but we all know they won't check.

My school has cameras, but they're more for decorative purposes since they don't work.

My school already has surveillance cameras.

So does mine, but they do nothing. They're only in the hallways, and they can't even get a good look into most of the classrooms. Some only show the half of the classroom closest to the door, other classrooms are out of view of the cameras, some halls don't even have them. I think there are around 6-8 in my school.

My old school had surveilance cameras, too, but they only showed the hallways, not classrooms.

My school already has surveillance cameras. They didn't stop me from getting a black eye before Christmas in '09.

Nor did it stop someone I know from beating the shit out of someone with a lock.

[Demen]

I recall that in grade 6, a group of people in the class took stuff out of the substitute teacher's purse and then threw it on my desk right before I came in to make it look like I did it... and no one in the class ever said that I didn't except myself. Now, for what it's worth, I'm not sure if they all wanted me to get in trouble for it or not, but it doesn't matter, because even if they DIDN'T, they sure didn't do anything about it.

Don't know if this has been said in any of the seven pages of responses as I haven't read them, but, what I have bolded should have clued any teacher with common sense that it WASN'T you. No one would have been that openly obvious about this infraction.

As for cameras in public schools: Never gonna happen due to all-powerful, all-mighty teacher unions. Because then their performance could be monitored better. While the good teachers would say sure, bring them on, there's enough bad teachers out there that would convince the union to not allow this to happen and have them fight for it. The union will say its for the kids.... but yeah, we know better.

So, you now know everything and simply know that didn't happen?


Please.

[Demen]

There already are surveillance cameras in public schools. There are cameras at my school in every hall I walk into and frankly I think it is an invasion of privacy. You wouldn't need the cameras if teachers would do their job. Actually, there wouldn't be a huge hype of "anti-bullying" going on right now if the teachers were doing their job right and actually teaching and educating kids with neccesary cirriculum. I hate how most people think cracking down on the students is going to prevent bullying. Newsflash people, teachers can be bullies too. Calling out and humiliating students for not doing homework, screaming at kids for talking, giving out detentions for stupid reasons. It affects kids pyschologically and negatively, shouldn't it be considered bullying? When a kid kills himself they blame it on the class bully, but I'm sure in many cases it is his fear of failure to suceed because of the pressure that is put on him by his teachers.

So let me get this straight:
Teachers shouldn't remind students that not doing their homework affects their grades.
Teachers should never get upset the four thousandth time they tell the same student to stop interrupting the lesson with their incessant nattering on about girls, boys, parties, phones, clothes, who's gay, who's a retard, who they'd bang, et cetera.
Teachers should not give out detentions for being rude, disruptive, abusive....


Yeah. It's clearly the teacher's fault.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:




Now, you're getting it!

[Katganistan]

So let me get this straight:
Teachers shouldn't remind students that not doing their homework affects their grades.
Teachers should never get upset the four thousandth time they tell the same student to stop interrupting the lesson with their incessant nattering on about girls, boys, parties, phones, clothes, who's gay, who's a retard, who they'd bang, et cetera.
Teachers should not give out detentions for being rude, disruptive, abusive....


Yeah. It's clearly the teacher's fault.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:




Now, you're getting it!

And I'll say it again: accountability for ill-behavior and NOT learning the 'cirriculum' by talking, not doing the homework, keeping others from "learning the 'cirriculum'" and whining for student: none.
Accountability for teachers not hand-holding people old enough to join the military, hold jobs, and have contracts for credit cards and cell phones: 100%.

Help help, they're being repressed. Come see the violence inherent in the system.

[Esternial]

I've said it before, I'll say it again:




Now, you're getting it!

And I'll say it again: accountability for ill-behavior and NOT learning the 'cirriculum' by talking, not doing the homework, keeping others from "learning the 'cirriculum'" and whining for student: none.
Accountability for teachers not hand-holding people old enough to join the military, hold jobs, and have contracts for credit cards and cell phones: 100%.

Help help, they're being repressed. Come see the violence inherent in the system.

Yes, the logic of the law can be a bit...well, illogical.

[Horsefish]

Funny thing. My kid manages to handle it, and socialize just fine. And we happen to be in a very good school district with high standards, and a high percentage of graduation, and college attendance after.

Manage your time better. If there's actual abuses going on, get parents involved and get it sorted. And take responsibility for your own actions or inaction - that tends to be key. And while you're at it, don't try to tell a teacher they aren't a part of the modern education system and expect to be taken seriously. Just some suggestions.

I meant they aren't gonig through the modern education system as a student. People have to put themselves in our shoes.

I'm a student, and what your saying is a crock of shit.

[The Lone Alliance]

Another "All teachers are incompetent thread?"

[Katganistan]

Another "All teachers are incompetent thread?"

Of course. You're surprised?

[Anarcho Phanafia]

I meant they aren't gonig through the modern education system as a student. People have to put themselves in our shoes.

I'm a student, and what your saying is a crock of shit.

How? I have almost killed myself because of the pressure and need to succeed. I was trying as hard as I possibly could to get decent grades, and still failing. A large part of it was being humiliated by teachers when they called me out for getting something wrong or forgetting to do my homework. I know many other kids who have the same struggle, and none of it has to do with bullying. So please tell me, how is it a crock of shit?

[Georgism]

What you need to realise is that cameras are not a novel solution. Schools have tried them in the past, and many of the posters in this thread have first hand experience, which you seem intent on dismissing.

My school has them, but I don't really care... Now if we want to fuck around we just leave the school site.

Whilst the above is true, I should note that so is the below:

On the other hand, at my school they were helpful when one kid decided to pull a knife on me. He was searched later by the site policeman and there was nothing on him. They had to check CCTV to show I wasn't lying, and he got expelled.

Usually they're a waste of time, but they can be helpful *shrug*

Anyway, carry on