Can atheists go to Heaven?

[Grave_n_idle]

God lied.

But, as was brought up earlier, by death, did God mean physical death, or is it spiritual?

I'd argue that they died spiritually the very moment they bit into the apple.

In the context of Hebrew theology of the time, there is no difference between 'spiritual' death and physical death, since 'spirit' is just the animating breath in your lungs, as 'soul' is just the animating blood in your veins. You're trying to impose latter theology over earlier scripture.

Besides, if the text says 'death' - why would you assume it means anything other than physical death?

[Grave_n_idle]

Actually... the serpent wasn't lying - it said "you shall not SURELY die" - and that was true. If they'd just (also) eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they wouldn't have (died, that is).

It was a lie.
God knew that Adam and Eve would die.
God means what he says.
And they did die. So it was surely.

Perhaps you don't understand the word 'surely'?

If they'd eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they'd have become like Jehovah God. And that's not me saying that, that's in the scripture.

[Grave_n_idle]

God lied.

What a well-thought out rebuttal. As always, I'm in pure awe of your theological prowess.

A false dichotomy was suggested. There was at least one more option, so I included it.

[Galloism]

But, as was brought up earlier, by death, did God mean physical death, or is it spiritual?

I'd argue that they died spiritually the very moment they bit into the apple.

In the context of Hebrew theology of the time, there is no difference between 'spiritual' death and physical death, since 'spirit' is just the animating breath in your lungs, as 'soul' is just the animating blood in your veins. You're trying to impose latter theology over earlier scripture.

Besides, if the text says 'death' - why would you assume it means anything other than physical death?

What about that scripture that says that 1,000 years is as one day to God?

I think it's Isaiah.

They did die 900-some odd years later.

[Gagatron]

It was a lie.
God knew that Adam and Eve would die.
God means what he says.
And they did die. So it was surely.

Perhaps you don't understand the word 'surely'?

If they'd eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they'd have become like Jehovah God. And that's not me saying that, that's in the scripture.

Really?
Would they have become omnipotent, omnipresent, etc?
They would have just been doing evil things on earth for eternity.
Besides, God knew what would happen, said it would happen, and it happened. Does Jehovah lie in the scripture? When God says "surely", it's surely.

[Grave_n_idle]

In the context of Hebrew theology of the time, there is no difference between 'spiritual' death and physical death, since 'spirit' is just the animating breath in your lungs, as 'soul' is just the animating blood in your veins. You're trying to impose latter theology over earlier scripture.

Besides, if the text says 'death' - why would you assume it means anything other than physical death?

What about that scripture that says that 1,000 years is as one day to God?

I think it's Isaiah.

They did die 900-some odd years later.

Second Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

It's a comparison, it doesn't say that 1000 years ARE one day, just that they are LIKE one day.

And it still doesn't dispute the fact that the 'death' was not 'sure'. If they had eaten the other fruit, they'd have been immortal.

[Geniasis]

A false dichotomy was suggested. There was at least one more option, so I included it.

Right, because truncating the rest of the post totally implies that you're adding to it, and in no way conveys the idea that you're shutting down alternative options in favor of "God lied. Full stop."


We've danced this dance before, you know.

[Grave_n_idle]

Perhaps you don't understand the word 'surely'?

If they'd eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they'd have become like Jehovah God. And that's not me saying that, that's in the scripture.

Really?
Would they have become omnipotent, omnipresent, etc?
They would have just been doing evil things on earth for eternity.
Besides, God knew what would happen, said it would happen, and it happened. Does Jehovah lie in the scripture? When God says "surely", it's surely.

Your argument is based on your assertion that it must be true, because it must be true. I don't accept your premise.

The scripture says: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

In other words, God says that man has become Godlike in his knowledge, and only differs from God in his mortality. And if man should "put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat" that difference would disappear.

[Darenjo]

I believe, being a Catholic (and my belief on this may go against the Church's), that anyone who led a good life will go to heaven, no matter what god/religion/force/non-religion that they believed in.

[Grave_n_idle]

A false dichotomy was suggested. There was at least one more option, so I included it.

Right, because truncating the rest of the post totally implies that you're adding to it, and in no way conveys the idea that you're shutting down alternative options in favor of "God lied. Full stop."

It conveys that I don't accept the suggested dichotomy. Which is good, because that's the appearance I wanted to convey.

The serpent told the truth. There was nothing 'sure' about the death of nascent mankind. Which means Jehovah God must have lied.

[Galloism]

What about that scripture that says that 1,000 years is as one day to God?

I think it's Isaiah.

They did die 900-some odd years later.

Second Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

It's a comparison, it doesn't say that 1000 years ARE one day, just that they are LIKE one day.

And it still doesn't dispute the fact that the 'death' was not 'sure'. If they had eaten the other fruit, they'd have been immortal.

Sadly, at this point, I think you know the bible better than I do. I'm slipping.

But, as to your last point, even higher Christian theology agrees with you. This is why it was necessary for the two angels and the spinning sword representing God's holy spirit to guard the tree of life day & night.

[The Corparation]

Here's the way I see it. Every ones going to heaven. Why? Well even if only one person gets in, it won't be heaven unless there freinds are there, they'll want their friends to be happy so their frioends freinds will be there, etc. etc. Except Furries, Commies and Gay's theyt are evil, have no souls and no one loves them.*
* Sarcasam

[Geniasis]

Your argument is based on your assertion that it must be true, because it must be true. I don't accept your premise.

The scripture says: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

In other words, God says that man has become Godlike in his knowledge, and only differs from God in his mortality. And if man should "put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat" that difference would disappear.

Chances are, the tree would grant them eternal life from continued eating rather than from a single fruit.

But we're talking about a fruit that gives you immortality, so I don't really have strong grounds to call shenanigans.

[Gagatron]

Really?
Would they have become omnipotent, omnipresent, etc?
They would have just been doing evil things on earth for eternity.
Besides, God knew what would happen, said it would happen, and it happened. Does Jehovah lie in the scripture? When God says "surely", it's surely.

Your argument is based on your assertion that it must be true, because it must be true. I don't accept your premise.

The scripture says: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

In other words, God says that man has become Godlike in his knowledge, and only differs from God in his mortality. And if man should "put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat" that difference would disappear.

Okay, you are arguing, that because they could have chosen to live forever, that death was not sure.
I am arguing that God knew that they would not make that choice, and that makes him sure in his mind. Therefore it was sure that they would die.
Please see the way I look at it.

[Geniasis]

It conveys that I don't accept the suggested dichotomy. Which is good, because that's the appearance I wanted to convey.

The serpent told the truth. There was nothing 'sure' about the death of nascent mankind. Which means Jehovah God must have lied.

Depends on the translation. the NIV has it as "you will not certainly die" and the NASB has it as you "surely will not die".

They did die, despite what the serpent said, but in not in the way YHWH perhaps lead them to believe.

Yeah, honesty really isn't a common theme in the story.

[Tyr-risuur]

Well, as a Catholic, I believe that both works and faith are important. That being said, I cannot presume that someone who dies as an atheist is automatically going to Hell. I am not God, I do not know enough to make the call. I do trust in God's mercy, and believe that most people will be in Heaven when all is said and done (I do subscribe to the idea of Purgatory, though, and I would venture to guess that of those bound for Heaven, most will go through Purgatory first). This is merely what I think about the whole issue of the after-life. As for my own self, I tend to think of God being more inclined towards justice than mercy, so I try to watch my step as best as I can.

God is just, but he is also forgiving.
He's pretty much, I think, willing to forgive anyone of anything.
That said, if you don't ever request forgiveness from him, the just thing to do is to punish evil.
IMHO.

You can't choose your beliefs. I can believe in the Christian god as much as I can believe I am an invisible pink unicorn. Grace? Faith? Saved by grace and faith? I cannot believe in God. I cannot believe in Jesus. I cannot be saved. Some are arbitrarily saved by "grace" of gullibility and/or chance. Some are arbitrarily damned by "grace" of intellect and/or chance. How in all this is God just?

[Geniasis]

You can't choose your beliefs. I can believe in the Christian god as much as I can believe I am an invisible pink unicorn. Grace? Faith? Saved by grace and faith? I cannot believe in God. I cannot believe in Jesus. I cannot be saved. Some are arbitrarily saved by "grace" of gullibility and/or chance. Some are arbitrarily damned by "grace" of intellect and/or chance. How in all this is God just?

The Real Live Preacher had a good one for this... hold on.

Turns out Christianity is an Eastern religion. The earliest Christians were Hebrews. Semites. People of the East. They did not know how to separate mind from body. They were holistic before holistic was cool.

In our world we have separated mind from body to our great loss. Here a man may betray his wife and neglect his children, but say he loves them “down inside”.

Bullshit. There is no “down inside.” Love is something you do, not something you feel.

Likewise, we think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them.

Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith.

I learned that it doesn’t matter in the least that I be convinced of God’s existence. Whether or not God exists is none of my business, really. What do I know of existence? I don’t even know how the VCR works.

What does matter is whether or not I am faithful. I think faithful is a hell of a good word. It still has some of its original shine. It still calls us to action.

[Grave_n_idle]

Second Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

It's a comparison, it doesn't say that 1000 years ARE one day, just that they are LIKE one day.

And it still doesn't dispute the fact that the 'death' was not 'sure'. If they had eaten the other fruit, they'd have been immortal.

Sadly, at this point, I think you know the bible better than I do. I'm slipping.

But, as to your last point, even higher Christian theology agrees with you. This is why it was necessary for the two angels and the spinning sword representing God's holy spirit to guard the tree of life day & night.

My own Biblical studies have also slipped recently. I've been too busy, and I really need to get back into it. But yes - the scripture makes a specific point of explaining that the trees MUST be guarded.

[Ashmoria]

god, misleading from day ONE. (or maybe day 9 by then). no wonder humanity has trouble following his commands.

This is so enfuriating.
The serpent was lying, don't you understand that?
And FYI, Adam and Eve did die.

for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Gagatron]

God is just, but he is also forgiving.
He's pretty much, I think, willing to forgive anyone of anything.
That said, if you don't ever request forgiveness from him, the just thing to do is to punish evil.
IMHO.

You can't choose your beliefs. I can believe in the Christian god as much as I can believe I am an invisible pink unicorn. Grace? Faith? Saved by grace and faith? I cannot believe in God. I cannot believe in Jesus. I cannot be saved. Some are arbitrarily saved by "grace" of gullibility and/or chance. Some are arbitrarily damned by "grace" of intellect and/or chance. How in all this is God just?

I can choose my beliefs. I've changed them several times, because I believe something for a time before my mind rules it out for some reason and then leads me to believe in somethings else.
I used to be athiest, and thought I never could believe in a God like Jehova, but all I did was try to understand him more, and I changed my mind. You can choose your beliefs, and I have chosen.

[Poorisolation]

Anyway, Athiests don't get into Heaven, because they do not accept Jesus.
No amount of good deeds in the world can fix all the evil that one person does, which is why we are not saved by work, we are saved by grace and faith.

Besides, if you believe, you tend to do good things anyway.

Though given that we have to lock up a dramatically smaller proportion of atheists it would seem if you do not believe you tend to be more likely to avoid doing bad things.

One can of course presuppose that Christians are correct in that they have a monopoly on Heaven and are also correct that God is not Omni-Benevolent (some observant readers may point out this is one of the corner stones of Christian theology but hey) it also requires that God really, really, really gives a damn about original sin because given the number of humans on the planet and given that most are non-believers in the Christian sense of one form or another then statistics argue that a fair few of them will genuinely mange to live and die without actually committing any new sins.

Assuming that is correct then yup all the rest of us folks are screwed as far as Heaven is concerned.

Now I am not too fussed as i have a hot date in hell lined up already but there is the very great possibility that God could exist and not be bound by the rules conjured out of whole cloth by a few jealous old men due to being quite possibly omnipotent and omniscient among other things. In fact if god is assumed to be omni-benevolent then universal entry into heaven is required to make up for the pain and suffering so many people endure, an eternity of bliss would rather outweigh even a hundred and twenty years of pain an misery.

Then again God might not be all-knowing, all-powerful and boundlessly nice and yet still be a being or entity powerful enough to create a realm that whatever form our eternal souls take they would regard as heaven. In that instance we simply would not know the rules for entry but then since we do not know we cannot assume that atheists are any less likely to go to heaven than anyone us. Even if only so so God can keep going "Hey Dawkins, I told you I exist!"

There is also the potential that those who argue for the existence of a lack of good are correct but that nevertheless there are eternal souls and humans can get there. Again we would not perforce know the entry requirements but must assume that Atheists have no lesser chance of entry. Heaven for Richard Dawkins would be a simple place he could sit for eternity and yell at passers by "Ha, I told you, God did not exist!"

Finally there could be the possibility that when we die we die, to rise or wander no more. Given how much many of us including myself enjoy a good sleep, such an end could only be described as Heaven.

[Grave_n_idle]

Your argument is based on your assertion that it must be true, because it must be true. I don't accept your premise.

The scripture says: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

In other words, God says that man has become Godlike in his knowledge, and only differs from God in his mortality. And if man should "put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat" that difference would disappear.

Chances are, the tree would grant them eternal life from continued eating rather than from a single fruit.

But we're talking about a fruit that gives you immortality, so I don't really have strong grounds to call shenanigans.

The fruit of Knowledge gives the godlike knowledge from just one taste, which rather suggests that the Tree of Life has similar properties. As the scripture says, mankind only had to reach out his hand, take the fruit and eat - that's a fait accompli. It doesn't say that immortality requires you to continue eating.

But, as you say, if eating the fruit provides immortality - even if you did have to keep eating it - then the 'surely die' situation seems shaky.

[Galloism]

Sadly, at this point, I think you know the bible better than I do. I'm slipping.

But, as to your last point, even higher Christian theology agrees with you. This is why it was necessary for the two angels and the spinning sword representing God's holy spirit to guard the tree of life day & night.

My own Biblical studies have also slipped recently. I've been too busy, and I really need to get back into it. But yes - the scripture makes a specific point of explaining that the trees MUST be guarded.

An interesting point of note, although pure conjecture on my part.

Have you ever thought about why God's holy spirit itself was present?

I have. If god had only sent angels, Satan (and later his fallen angels) might have attacked and overpowered the tree's guardians, allowing the humans and nephilim to eat. However, they dared not strike the holy spirit itself.

That's my take, anyway.

[Geniasis]

The fruit of Knowledge gives the godlike knowledge from just one taste, which rather suggests that the Tree of Life has similar properties. As the scripture says, mankind only had to reach out his hand, take the fruit and eat - that's a fait accompli. It doesn't say that immortality requires you to continue eating.

But, as you say, if eating the fruit provides immortality - even if you did have to keep eating it - then the 'surely die' situation seems shaky.

*shrug* My study bible has a footnote that suggest that it would be continued eating, and who am I to argue with a collection of PhDs?

Still, it seems like those comments are based simply on the results of that act in isolation. Eating of the tree = death (whether immediately or gradually is not made clear, but the latter is what took place). The serpent says it probably wouldn't happen, implying the former. That the effects could be countered never really entered into it because, again, honesty and complete pictures aren't a common thread of the story.

[Ashmoria]

Actually... the serpent wasn't lying - it said "you shall not SURELY die" - and that was true. If they'd just (also) eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they wouldn't have (died, that is).

It was a lie.
God knew that Adam and Eve would die.
God means what he says.
And they did die. So it was surely.

yeah

so

as i said. misleading from day one (or day 9 maybe).

god told them a half truth that they would need far more understanding of life and death and theology than they could possibly have as people who had only lived a few days without the knowledge of good and evil.