Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

[Eofaerwic]

I've always been against don't ask don't tell. Do the government really thing the majority of soldiers are that immature that they'd find working with gays a problem?

For that matter, recent studies looking at how US soldiers managed working closely with openly gay members of other armed forces (including those on 'exchange' programs and thus strongly embeded in the US military) and found *drumroll* they had no issue with it - US military personnel are professional enough to handle someone else's sexuality!

[Conserative Morality]

YA!

real macho troops would fight with swords, dammit. FACE TO FACE! MAN TO MAN!

I disagree. They should line up in huge groups, and fire at regular intervals.

[Saint Clair Island]

conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

It was replacing a policy that classified homosexuality as a mental illness. Presumably Congress/the DoD simply wouldn't accept a more radical change at the time.

probably so. but replacing one bad policy with another bad policy is generally not regarded as a good move.

It's widely regarded as "the best they could do at the time", I think. So it sucked, but not quite as much. Presumably the way is now paved for a policy that sucks even less, until we finally get one that actually makes sense.

[Katganistan]

How about a "my private life is private, fuck off," policy. For whenever someone sticks their nose in someone else's business.

[Saint Clair Island]

YA!

real macho troops would fight with swords, dammit. FACE TO FACE! MAN TO MAN!

I disagree. They should line up in huge groups, and fire at regular intervals.

They should fight in "turns", each lasting a certain number of hours, during which the other army can do nothing but defend against their attacks. Also, how successful an attack is should be determined by rolling dice.

[Garethdom]

In this day and age, a 'don't ask don't tell' policy is unbelievable. When I applied to join the Royal Air Force, it was made pretty clear that people from all backgrounds were welcome, and that discrimination on the grounds of sexuality was not. Ultimately a combat unit is going to have to overcome all sorts of interpersonal problems, and most do so successfully. Somehow I think U.S troops are just as capable of accepting homosexual colleagues as anyone else.

[Nadkor]

Just like segregation protected black people eh?

Tried that argument. The response? "Military Culture is different."

Same argument was made for segregated troops.

But "military culture" in other countries and historically shows that homosexuals can serve with honor and dignity.

There's a passage from The West Wing that I always think of when people are discussing don't ask don't tell (Fitzwallace is black):

MAJOR TATE
Sir, we're not prejudiced toward homosexuals.

FITZWALLACE
You just don't want to see them serving in the Armed Forces?

MAJOR TATE
No sir, I don't.

FITZWALLACE
'Cause they oppose a threat to unit discipline and cohesion.

MAJOR TATE
Yes sir.

FITZWALLACE
That's what I think too. I also think the military wasn't designed to be an instrument of social change.

MAJOR TATE
Yes sir.

FITZWALLACE
The problem with that is that what they were saying to me 50 years ago. Blacks shouldn't serve with Whites. It would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed. I'm an admiral in the U.S. Navy and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff...Beat that with a stick.

[The Cat-Tribe]

conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

It was replacing a policy that classified homosexuality as a mental illness. Presumably Congress/the DoD simply wouldn't accept a more radical change at the time.

probably so. but replacing one bad policy with another bad policy is generally not regarded as a good move.

Although I wish Clinton had simply abolished the policy against homosexuals, "don't ask, don't tell" -- flawed and bigotted as it is -- was an improvement -- at least on paper (I'm not sure if it actually allowed more homosexuals to serve or not).

But, partisan politics aside, it is time to simply let people serve regardless of sexual orientation.

[Thethunderdome]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

*sigh*

Fighting is the applied application of superior firepower and tactics. to fault the military for useing firepower is like faulting a chef for useing utensils.

Exactly....the point is to have superior firepower.

[YamataNoOrochi]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

Like D-Day, and all of the Western front?

Or all the ground troops in Korea?

Or the Marines in Vietnam?

Grow up. The USA is just another country, hating it just to be 'edgy' is childish.

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

Because our troops are heartless, soulless monsters, amiright?

[Klonor]

So, far everybody who's posted here seems to be in agreement that "Don't ask, don't tell" is not the proper way to go (if it ever was) and, even if it did replace something worse, we need to progress on to a still better solution. Unfortunately, I must take a stance, plant my foot, refuse to yield an inch, and proudly proclaim I am in complete agreement.

Homosexuality is one of the few remaining "groups" (Whether it be race, religion, nationality, sexuality, etc.) to still be covered by government-sanctioned discrimination and exclusion. Oh, there's still de facto racism and prejudice against everybody else, too, (And plenty of it; with hate-based vandalism, theft, rape and murder) but at least there the people in charge have realized it's not supposed to be like that, and have removed the laws supporting these actions. Even if not everybody can accept it (And let's be honest, if there' still racial issues so long after the end of official segregation, there's going to be sexual issues long after we end this), society as a whole should at least be trying for equality, not legitimizing inequality.

[No Names Left Damn It]

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

We've got our very own telepath, guys! Knows exactly what all US troops like doing!

[Kusatsu]

conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

It was replacing a policy that classified homosexuality as a mental illness. Presumably Congress/the DoD simply wouldn't accept a more radical change at the time.

probably so. but replacing one bad policy with another bad policy is generally not regarded as a good move.

No, they replaced a bad policy with a better policy, which is generally considered a good move. Even if that new policy is not the best policy.

[Neo Art]

conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

No it wasn't "instituted" by Clinton, it was a law passed by a (Republican controlled) congress. True, Clinton signed it, but the alternative of course was to continue to allow the old policy of "gays can't serve, PERIOD" to continue.

It's not simply Presidentially mandated military policy. If it were, Obama could undue it with a stroke of a pen. It's federal law, instituted BY CONGRESS and only CONGRESS can undue it.

[Brogavia]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

Like D-Day, and all of the Western front?

Or all the ground troops in Korea?

Or the Marines in Vietnam?

Grow up. The USA is just another country, hating it just to be 'edgy' is childish.

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

Oh yes, because America is the only country ever to invade another country. And the troops not caring about what they fighting for, is crap. It shows you have no concepts of duty, honor, and patriotism.

[Saint Clair Island]

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

Because our troops are heartless, soulless monsters, amiright?

Urriet. It's not like soldiers are actually individual people with their own opinions, beliefs, and interests! They're just robots sent out by the US Government to do its evil, imperialist bidding.

[Yenke-Bin]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

A+++ post, highly relevant to the topic at hand, would read again. Highly reccomended poster.

Actually on topic, it is pretty screwed up that the US military is tearing around the world supposedly in the name of freedom for all when a fair chunk of the population can't join in just because they're better dressed than everyone else.

Imagine how a gay man could make his dress uniform look. He'd put the straights to shame.

[The Cat-Tribe]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

Like D-Day, and all of the Western front?

Or all the ground troops in Korea?

Or the Marines in Vietnam?

Grow up. The USA is just another country, hating it just to be 'edgy' is childish.

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

Although I know personally people who have joined the military because they like shooting things and blowing things up, these were not those person's only reasons nor are they representative of all members of the U.S. military.

Not to mention that similar things could be said about any military.

[Sdaeriji]

US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm

Like D-Day, and all of the Western front?

Or all the ground troops in Korea?

Or the Marines in Vietnam?

Grow up. The USA is just another country, hating it just to be 'edgy' is childish.

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

I would love to read your peer-reviewed scientific study on this phenomenon.

[Katganistan]

I'm not trying to be 'edgy' - Americans just invade other countries, and the troops could not care less what they are fighting for, they just like shooting things and blowing things up.

Because our troops are heartless, soulless monsters, amiright?

Urriet. It's not like soldiers are actually individual people with their own opinions, beliefs, and interests! They're just robots sent out by the US Government to do its evil, imperialist bidding.

It's the Clone Wars, baby.

[Saint Clair Island]

Because our troops are heartless, soulless monsters, amiright?

Urriet. It's not like soldiers are actually individual people with their own opinions, beliefs, and interests! They're just robots sent out by the US Government to do its evil, imperialist bidding.

It's the Clone Wars, baby.

Ayup. And in such an army, homosexuality would really be a phantom menace.

[Gun Manufacturers]

YA!

real macho troops would fight with swords, dammit. FACE TO FACE! MAN TO MAN!

I disagree. They should line up in huge groups, and fire at regular intervals.

They should fight in "turns", each lasting a certain number of hours, during which the other army can do nothing but defend against their attacks. Also, how successful an attack is should be determined by rolling dice.

Turns lasting hours? What planet are you from? A round should only last 15 seconds, and you should be able to attack or defend as many times during that round as you have actions. If you have auto-dodge, it doesn't even take an action to dodge.

[Grays Harbor]

conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

No it wasn't "instituted" by Clinton, it was a law passed by a (Republican controlled) congress. True, Clinton signed it, but the alternative of course was to continue to allow the old policy of "gays can't serve, PERIOD" to continue.

It's not simply Presidentially mandated military policy. If it were, Obama could undue it with a stroke of a pen. It's federal law, instituted BY CONGRESS and only CONGRESS can undue it.

It was instituted by Clinton in as much the same manner as policies instituted by any president are. They are in the hot seat, they get the blame or kudos. live with it. not saying that is right or wrong, but thats the way it is. and if he truly objected that much to it, there is always the "red pen of veto" handy.

[Yenke-Bin]

It's the Clone Wars, baby.

Ayup. And in such an army, homosexuality would really be a phantom menace.

Oh, not this shi...erm sith again.