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Students forced to recite Pledge of Allegiance, VA

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Vesintor
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Students forced to recite Pledge of Allegiance, VA

Postby Vesintor » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:45 pm

In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god); I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition). My parents have refused to sign an exemption because they don't agree with my views.

I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedience. I don't have any respect for the flag or this country, and I won't stand up for it. I suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

Here's an excerpt from the Virginia Senate Bill 1331:
Pledge of Allegiance. Requires (i) all students to be required to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and to demonstrate such knowledge and (ii) each school board to require the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in each classroom of the school division and to ensure that an American flag is in place in each classroom. Each school board must determine the appropriate time during the school day for the recitation of the Pledge. During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.


Here's a link to the full text.

I do apologize for the verbose nature of this post, but I felt that this community was the right place to share my plight.

EDIT: I did misread the statute, thank you guys for pointing that out. I am bringing this to class tomorrow and I will tell my teacher I don't need my parents to exempt me.
Last edited by Vesintor on Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:47 pm

Since this involves you, and not some person in the news or hypothetical, and you seem to be complaining about the laws of VA I would recommend seeing if the ACLU would be willing to take up your case.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:49 pm

G&D may correct me here, but the bill seems to me to say that you can excuse yourself:
no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he[...] objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.
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Jingoist Hippostan
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:49 pm

I feel like you're going to end up putting in way more effort than this issue really merits.
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Supreme Marshal Petan
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Postby Supreme Marshal Petan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:51 pm

"...I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition)..."


Then, get the fuck out.
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Zyorlerinaza
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Postby Zyorlerinaza » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:53 pm

Fight em' in the street.

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Vesintor
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Postby Vesintor » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:55 pm

Supreme Marshal Petan wrote:
"...I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition)..."


Then, get the fuck out.


LOL nationalist

Lackadaisical2 wrote:G&D may correct me here, but the bill seems to me to say that you can excuse yourself:
no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he[...] objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.


At my school they have asked that I have an written exemption from my guardian.
Last edited by Vesintor on Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Tavan Race
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Postby The Tavan Race » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:57 pm

I don't believe in any god, but I still say the part about "one nation, under God". Why? Because it is an accurate statement. Something like ninety percent of USian citizens are Christians.
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Supreme Marshal Petan
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Postby Supreme Marshal Petan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:59 pm

Vesintor wrote:
Supreme Marshal Petan wrote:
Then, get the fuck out.


LOL nationalist


Damn straight.

Seriously I can see objecting to saying a pledge that violates your personal beliefs in a deity, I'd further agree this country has made plenty of mistakes, but what I don't respect, what I disagree with are people who are young and snobbish, who never had to sweat and bleed, who are calling this country so goddamn awful.

If it's so awful, than leave it. Otherwise help try and change it.
Last edited by Supreme Marshal Petan on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vesintor
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Postby Vesintor » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:59 pm

Altamirus wrote:Why couldn't you just get the exemption from your parents?


They refused and said it was disrespectful.
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Santheres
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Postby Santheres » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:59 pm

Cry about it.

Get used to doing things you don't want to do.

Or better yet, just stand up and don't say it. No one will notice and you won't be a jackass. There are a ton of better things to spend your time bitching about.
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Kwewu
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Postby Kwewu » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:00 pm

You live here. That alone is reason to at least stand up. You don't like us? Get out, simple as that.

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm

The Canadian Pacific wrote:
The Tavan Race wrote:I don't believe in any god, but I still say the part about "one nation, under God". Why? Because it is an accurate statement. Something like ninety percent of USian citizens are Christians.

lolwrong

Well thought out response. Its only 80%...
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Ryadn
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Postby Ryadn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm

That's just wrong. Until I became a teacher and had to lead my kids in the pledge, I hadn't said it since I was about 10. I only started saying it again because I taught kindergarten my first year, and learning the pledge (though not reciting it each morning--just learning it) is one of the grade level standards. I taught it to my class sans the "under god", and since I don't teach kinder anymore, I've stopped reciting it.

I DO make my students stand up and be respectful--not of the flag, but of their peers, no messing around--but I'd never make them say it, and I'd contact my union if my principal ever told me I HAD to say it.

Then again, we still have to sign a paper promising not to advocate an overthrow of the government, so. *sigh*
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:G&D may correct me here, but the bill seems to me to say that you can excuse yourself:
no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he[...] objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.

Thats how I read the law.
no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parents or legal guardian objects ...

Or in this case would suggest any of the three above can object.
However the OP's school board might construct the statute, to read he and his parent or he and his legal guardian objects. I think this would be an incorrect construction of the statute, but I could easily see a Virgina school board constructing it this way. I would find this construction unconstitutional as SCOTUS has specifically ruled in regards to the pledge the state may not compel speech.

So in general I would say your right, reading the statute and the OP it sounds like the school district the OP resides in is in error.
Last edited by Greed and Death on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jingoist Hippostan
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Postby Jingoist Hippostan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:01 pm

The Canadian Pacific wrote:
Supreme Marshal Petan wrote:
Then, get the fuck out.

This is a valid, irrefutable argument that has not been brought up in threads prior to this.


No, I agree with him.

Seriously kid, all the horrors America has wrecked upon the world, and you're whining about prohibition? Perhaps you'd best stick to making invalid political arguments, smoking weed, "rebelling," and wearing a dweeby beret.

Also, did you even read the law before you posted it? It clearly says you don't have to recite it. If you tried to "protest" this law you'd look beyond ignorant.

Then again, we still have to sign a paper promising not to advocate an overthrow of the government, so. *sigh*


Somehow I don't feel like telling a bunch of kindergarteners to overthrow the government is going to create much of an issue.
Last edited by Jingoist Hippostan on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sidereal Cities
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Postby Sidereal Cities » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:03 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:G&D may correct me here, but the bill seems to me to say that you can excuse yourself:
no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he[...] objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.

Read the whole sentence, Lacky.
During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.

And the following sentence:
Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability.

My suggestion is to be a smart-aleck and refuse to recognize the authority of run on sentences.

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Just Guy
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Postby Just Guy » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:04 pm

You are aware that SB 1331 is from... 2001?

Summary
Full text

The current text of the Code of Virginia, § 22.1-202 reads:

however, no student shall be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical or other grounds to his participating in this exercise. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge shall remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and shall make no display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge.
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:05 pm

Vesintor wrote:In the state of Virginia, students are required to stand and say the pledge unless they have an exemption from their parents. I am 17 and I not only disagree with the wording in the pledge of allegiance (one nation, under god); I also refuse to pledge my allegiance to the United States government. I find the laws and actions of this country appalling and heinous (particularly prohibition). My parents have refused to sign an exemption because they don't agree with my views.

I will not just stand up, I have dignity and a right to practice civil disobedience. I don't have any respect for the flag or this country, and I won't stand up for it. I suggest students in a similar predicament to sit down, don't give in just because people tell you to. Now I may be facing some sort of disciplinary action from the school for refusing to recite a pledge; it's the land of the free and home of the brave I suppose.

Here's an excerpt from the Virginia Senate Bill 1331:
Pledge of Allegiance. Requires (i) all students to be required to learn the Pledge of Allegiance and to demonstrate such knowledge and (ii) each school board to require the daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in each classroom of the school division and to ensure that an American flag is in place in each classroom. Each school board must determine the appropriate time during the school day for the recitation of the Pledge. During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds. Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability. School board codes of conduct shall apply to disruptive behavior during the recitation of the Pledge in the same manner as provided for other circumstances of similar behavior. The Office of the Attorney General must intervene on behalf of local school boards and must provide legal defense of these provisions.


Here's a link to the full text.

I do apologize for the verbose nature of this post, but I felt that this community was the right place to share my plight.

I believe the Supreme Court has found that unconstitutional, and Federal law supercedes state law.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/Spe ... pic=pledge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virgi ... ._Barnette

Neo Art and The Cat-Tribes could of course better confirm if this is so.

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:05 pm

Sidereal Cities wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:G&D may correct me here, but the bill seems to me to say that you can excuse yourself:

Read the whole sentence, Lacky.
During the Pledge of Allegiance, students must either stand and recite the Pledge while facing the flag with their right hands over their hearts or in an appropriate salute if in uniform; however, no student can be compelled to recite the Pledge if he, his parent or legal guardian objects on religious, philosophical, or other grounds.

And the following sentence:
Students who are thus exempt from reciting the Pledge must remain quietly standing or sitting at their desks while others recite the Pledge and must not make any display that disrupts or distracts others who are reciting the Pledge. School boards must provide appropriate accommodations for students who are unable to comply with these procedures due to disability.

My suggestion is to be a smart-aleck and refuse to recognize the authority of run on sentences.

What are you pointing out exactly?
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Ryadn
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Postby Ryadn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:05 pm

Jingoist Hippostan wrote:Somehow I don't feel like telling a bunch of kindergarteners to overthrow the government is going to create much of an issue.


Clearly you haven't spent a day with 30 kindergarteners recently. Tiny psychotic ninjas, they are.
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Postby Phonencia » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:05 pm

If you are ashamed to stand by your colors, you had better seek a new flag.

if you don't respect this nation and flag, then I respectfully ask you to get out of it and move to iran, where they behead you for such non sense. and for being gay, non muslim, a woman, etc. etc.
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Imperial Domtopia
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Postby Imperial Domtopia » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:06 pm

There's a better argument for not reciting the pledge than not liking the country. An objection to nationalism in general makes more sense. If you refuse to connect abstract concepts like the "flag", the "pledge", the "people", "foreign policy" etc. then the pledge is just a pledge and represents nothing. Hence, there is no point in saying it. Nationalism is stupid. Compulsory nationalism just plain retarded.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:06 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Sidereal Cities wrote:Read the whole sentence, Lacky.

And the following sentence:

My suggestion is to be a smart-aleck and refuse to recognize the authority of run on sentences.

What are you pointing out exactly?

That he does not know how to read a statute.
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Ryadn
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Postby Ryadn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:07 pm

Phonencia wrote:If you are ashamed to stand by your colors, you had better seek a new flag.

if you don't respect this nation and flag, then I respectfully ask you to get out of it and move to iran, where they behead you for such non sense. and for being gay, non muslim, a woman, etc. etc.


You're with us or you're against us, eh? That sounds so familiar...
"I hate you! I HATE you collectivist society. You can't tell me what to do, you're not my REAL legitimate government. As soon as my band takes off, and I invent a perpetual motion machine, I am SO out of here!" - Neo Art

"But please, explain how a condom breaking is TOTALLY different from a tire getting blown out. I mean, in one case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own, and in the other case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own." - The Norwegian Blue

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