Is Israel an Attacker or a defender?

[Belrussia]

Based on a couple of observations i made regarding the way people treat Israeli methods to defend itself, i must ask the NSG:
Do you really think that Israel is looking for a reason to hurt innocents for no reason?
Does no one put into account that Israel rarely strikes first?

I would add more, but i'm afraid it will look like a rant.

[Hydesland]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

[Belrussia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

[Hydesland]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

They don't?

[Belrussia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

[Brewdomia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

The US was targeting military centers and the government...

[Belrussia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

The US was targeting military centers and the government...

As was Israel in Gaza. And the world yelled "Murder!"

[Belrussia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

I've never really been a fan of the "Someone else was being a dick so why can't I" argument

I'm asking "Why the double standard?"

[Islamic Hazarastan]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

'course not.

...
Accidents happen, no?

[Caninope]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

They don't?

I remember watching Baghdad getting pounded by cannons, being bombed, and anything the U.S can do, and i remember no International Delegation for War Crimes.

The US was targeting military centers and the government...

As was Israel in Gaza. And the world yelled "Murder!"

The difference being that in Baghdad, most of the civilians weren't hurt, weren't in that part of the city, or were evacuated.

Not the case with the Gaza strip. There is no double standard here, but I don't think Israel specifically targets civilians.

[Numerika]

You can psychobabble about it for infinity, but the truth is it's both as often happens. The attacked becomes the attacker.

[Lord Tothe]

The middle east today is a mess, and Israel has as much blame as anyone else. Israel is the only country that has fenced off a giant concentration camp and attacked relief convoys though.

[Brewdomia]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

'course not.

...
Accidents happen, no?

It's war. Accidents will happen.

[Rich and Corporations]

They engage in preemptive defense.

[Militsia]

The state of Israel is just a tiny part of the Israel of the Bible. So clearly they are not an occupant. They do attack to defend, though.

[Dododecapod]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

'course not.

...
Accidents happen, no?

Yes.

[Belrussia]

The middle east today is a mess, and Israel has as much blame as anyone else. Israel is the only country that has fenced off a giant concentration camp and attacked relief convoys though.

And, that comes from where exactly?

[Dododecapod]

The middle east today is a mess, and Israel has as much blame as anyone else. Israel is the only country that has fenced off a giant concentration camp and attacked relief convoys though.

And, that comes from where exactly?

I believe he's referring to the facts of the Israeli Wall (defensive, and it's worked), the blockade of Gaza (which seems to have successfully reduced the number of rocket attacks) and the botched boarding of the relief ship (which was a total cock-up).

[Belrussia]

The middle east today is a mess, and Israel has as much blame as anyone else. Israel is the only country that has fenced off a giant concentration camp and attacked relief convoys though.

And, that comes from where exactly?

I believe he's referring to the facts of the Israeli Wall (defensive, and it's worked), the blockade of Gaza (which seems to have successfully reduced the number of rocket attacks) and the botched boarding of the relief ship (which was a total cock-up).

I wonder though, has anyone heard of the new mall they opened in Gaza? Opened some time ago, flooding with Israeli made goods.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 41,00.html

for the readers

[Descending Darkness]

We could sit here all day and talk about these things, but I think it's hard to get into the mind set of the Israeli government. They are beset on all sides by hostile governments who have before attacked Israel in it's infancy, and may do so again. This is also compounded by the fact that you have certain Palestinians that would do anything to destroy Israel and Iran shouting for the destruction of Israel anytime they can.

Given all of these things Israel has to make defense one of it's top priorities and sometimes has to make very difficult calls where lack of action may jeopardize dozens of innocent lives in Israel. So even if you do want to argue that Israel is doing wrong, it's important to keep in mind they are in an incredibly hostile environment and that while we sit here hundreds of thousands of miles away contemplating it in the safety of our homes they have to deal with constant threat and how best to combat it.

[Avenio]

The state of Israel is just a tiny part of the Israel of the Bible. So clearly they are not an occupant. They do attack to defend, though.

Ignoring the blatant fallacy of basing the character of a 60-year-old nation on a state that existed over 2500 years ago and giving said modern state ultimate jurisdiction over a territory that they have not inhabited for almost all of that time, ignoring the rights of the people who had been there for most of that time, perhaps longer, the Bible is clearly not a justification for them to commit reprehensible acts and absolve them of responsibility for them. If Israel wants to be considered on the moral high ground and a part of the greater community of responsible nations, then it needs to start acting like one. Starting with admitting its mistakes, then investigating, and, if necessary, trying for war crimes, those who committed excesses. Mistakes happen in wars, civilians are killed, these things are unavoidable. But to simply wave them away or ignore them makes them no better than the terrorists they're fighting.

[Karnei Shomron]

Defender. Terrorists are attacking it from all over. Look at this rocket launching truck:

This is a captured “garbage truck” from Gaza.

The truck is set up to fire Kasem rockets and then drive off innocently.

The note pasted on the driver’s door says - "In case of traffic violations,
please contact The Palestinian Authority.”

The Israelis have evidence of ambulances and emergency vehicles set up
the same way.

[Belrussia]

The state of Israel is just a tiny part of the Israel of the Bible. So clearly they are not an occupant. They do attack to defend, though.

Ignoring the blatant fallacy of basing the character of a 60-year-old nation on a state that existed over 2500 years ago and giving said modern state ultimate jurisdiction over a territory that they have not inhabited for almost all of that time, ignoring the rights of the people who had been there for most of that time, perhaps longer, the Bible is clearly not a justification for them to commit reprehensible acts and absolve them of responsibility for them. If Israel wants to be considered on the moral high ground and a part of the greater community of responsible nations, then it needs to start acting like one. Starting with admitting its mistakes, then investigating, and, if necessary, trying for war crimes, those who committed excesses. Mistakes happen in wars, civilians are killed, these things are unavoidable. But to simply wave them away or ignore them makes them no better than the terrorists they're fighting.

Thats just the thing. Israel will never be placed on the moral high ground, because there is a moral double standard regarding everything it does. This "Greater community" that you speak of is the very same one that would rather see Israel getting assaulted for everything it does, while its enemies follow those procedures and even more. And why is the bible tied into everything? The only ones who make that argument are the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who don't even help the state.

And the fact is that the "Palestinians" never existed until the division. There was no Palestine. It was all a small chunk in the back of the Ottoman empire, that no one would give half a crap about.

[Pope Joan]

Israel gets really mad when shoddy inaccurate rockets are sent its way; that's usually when they react.

But Who wiped out the other's water and power?

Who has suffered more casualties, whether injury or death?

Who got shut out by a wall?

Who gets to have helicopter gunships, a navy, and nukes and who doesn't?

It's the one-sideness that troubles me.

If you want peace in the Mideast, arm the Palestinians.

[Katganistan]

I don't think Israel actively target civilians, I just think their methods are just too careless and will result in collateral civilian deaths.

And yet the Americans can blast half of Baghdad to smithereens, and no one raises a siren?

Where have YOU been?