Police: Heroes or Villains?

[Washington-Columbia]

Literally like half of the posts here, it depends.

There are articles of Cops being good like this one: https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/our-fav ... e-of-2015/ (Note: There is no evidence that they are completely innocent, though there is also no evidence they are total bad cops.)

Bad cops include Chauvin who kneeled on George Floyd's neck, killing him for being accused of a counterfeit bill, James Flower, who murdered Jimmie Lee Jackson, for peacefully marching for civil rights and trying to protect his family members, and Philip Brailsford, who shot Daniel Shaver, who said "Please Don't Shoot" as his last words. (They killed him because they tried to find a rife, which was a pellet gun.)

While I listed more examples of good cops and there are likely more good cops, there are many cases of widespread police brutality such as the 2020 George Floyd Protests or the 2019 Hong Kong Protests, along with places that are outside the States.

[Saiwania]

What not enough people recognize is that the rank and file police aren't incentivized to take "to protect and serve" to heart. The idealists are fired more often than not, or punished for taking risks. The training is all wrong and people aren't conditioned and selected for bravery like military people are.

Police in the US should arguably be more like a gendarmerie if not a military police. There would be better results than if they hire and keep just any civilian.

[Big Jim P]

That definition can also essentially apply to the military too y'know.

True, given I created an overly simple and low-quality definition. That’s why I added the Oxford Languages definition.

If you work for a system that is fundamentally broken to it's core then it doesn't matter if there are good individuals. The argument you both are making is a deflection to solely blame individuals for the crimes of a system designed to protect and encourage those individuals. Any point to be argued here isn't about individuals, it is about systems and institutions.

Besides their ability to use violence, I don’t think the police as a system are broken. Most police systems are, allowing corruption and unnecessary violence among other things, but to apply that to the police as a whole is interesting, and in my opinion, is incorrect. A large nation will need at least some form of law enforcement to punish criminals and protect civilians, whether that be a paid police force, a volunteer force, or something different.

The citizens should be doing this themselves with the police being the cleanup crew.

[Valentine Z]

To echo what most says, again, this depends so much on several factors. You have the good cops and the bad ones in every place, not limited to a certain country or a system. Even in a very corrupt police force you could find a good soul (though whether or not they too will get turned is another thing). And even in relatively cleaner forces you will find corrupt folks who are either still there, or may be quickly losing their job and their time in the force.

Though of course, it would help to educate and support the folks as a means of prevention rather than making them do the crime and getting the police involved, but that's another thing entirely. Could also have community outreach.

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Lived in Burma for 11 years, Singapore for 16 years (and counting). I am not a really big fan of either one, but can sufficiently say that in my 16 years here in SG, at the very least, I don't have officers asking my family rather regularly for an allowance, or recently having one of my relatives dragged out of his home for questioning (it did end on a peaceful note, but it was terrifying). Mileages vary, of course.

[Ethel mermania]

As another poster said

A necessary evil.

[Atlantic Federalist Republic]

Poucas vezes na minha vida eu vi um tema tão importante ser tratado de maneira tão superficial

Wow, even during the shit of the text I made it clear that I didn't try to know much about it.

[Incorporated England]

As a lot of people have already said, it heavily depends.

On an individual level, there will always be good and bad people in the police force, as with any organisation of sufficient size. I have nothing against individual police officers, and appreciate that most of them are probably not bloodthirsty racist murderers. That being said, my main problem with the police comes from that fact that governments often use them to enforce their own agenda or protect the elites, at the expense of protecting and serving the public. Things like the new Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill over here in the UK represent blatant overreach on the part of the government - police are given the power to excessively regulate protests to the point of restricting how long they can last, as well as confiscating equipment such as megaphones and the like.

I would argue that most problems that the police have stem from either the government using them to enforce an authoritarian agenda, or in the case of institutional racism, the refusal of higher ups in both the police and government to critically look at how their organisation and the people within it acts towards minorities and the general public. Ultimately, authoritarianism and cronyism are the main problems here.

[Atlantic Federalist Republic]

As a lot of people have already said, it heavily depends.

On an individual level, there will always be good and bad people in the police force, as with any organisation of sufficient size. I have nothing against individual police officers, and appreciate that most of them are probably not bloodthirsty racist murderers. That being said, my main problem with the police comes from that fact that governments often use them to enforce their own agenda or protect the elites, at the expense of protecting and serving the public. Things like the new Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill over here in the UK represent blatant overreach on the part of the government - police are given the power to excessively regulate protests to the point of restricting how long they can last, as well as confiscating equipment such as megaphones and the like.

I would argue that most problems that the police have stem from either the government using them to enforce an authoritarian agenda, or in the case of institutional racism, the refusal of higher ups in both the police and government to critically look at how their organisation and the people within it acts towards minorities and the general public. Ultimately, authoritarianism and cronyism are the main problems here.

Truth. I think we can attribute the same thing to the army, or am I delusional, idk.

[Kouralia]

Definitely villains.

Source: I'm a meanie.

[The Holy Therns]

They're both. They're villoes.

[Ifreann]

True, given I created an overly simple and low-quality definition. That’s why I added the Oxford Languages definition.



Besides their ability to use violence, I don’t think the police as a system are broken. Most police systems are, allowing corruption and unnecessary violence among other things, but to apply that to the police as a whole is interesting, and in my opinion, is incorrect. A large nation will need at least some form of law enforcement to punish criminals and protect civilians, whether that be a paid police force, a volunteer force, or something different.

The citizens should be doing this themselves with the police being the cleanup crew.

Aren't those called lynch mobs?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Bit of both. Some are outright villains, most are somewhat "grey" in their overall impact, but over a career I doubt any of them are particularly heroic in the balance. You need something like them, but in the current system police are used as the social response for a bunch of issues where force and punishment aren't necessarily the best paradigm and they are also part of the apparatus that protects the current regime of property rights and the bounds of "legitimate" political activity. You will in some incidents protect some people from having something bad done to them, and then in the next incident facilitate an injustice. Not to mention the culture of covering up when an officer has been naughty even within their own rules.

[Saiwania]

The people who're too "heroic" are usually fired if they're a cop or don't last for as long within a department.

Primarily because heroics inherently means not following protocol perfectly and instead going above and beyond. That approach typically requires taking on too much risk for that sort of organization's liking. Such a person also has to contend with jealous coworkers or higher ups trying to get them fired if not demoted if they're outshining them too much.

Police departments explicitly disincentivize/punish going outside of their protocol or ignoring the training, which is to prioritize officer safety/benefits over any civilian rights/interests at all times. If a police force favors shooting a suspect first if in doubt, they're going to see displays of restraint/deescalation as a bad thing, even if or when its not.

[Informed Consent]

As another poster said

A necessary evil.

As is all government, and subsequently, all of its agency.
Once you begin arbitrarily controlling people, any compassion you have for them counts for naught.
Simply put, it is the struggle between a good mother, and an evil one residing in one body.
Does she empower you leaving the nest, or imprison you in it?

Speaking to another poster's mention of a difference in character between military, and civilian police, there is something to that.
The inherent danger in policing tactically trained perps has focused MP training primarily towards deescalation.
Civilian organizations are a bit more cavalier in taking everyday people for granted despite their training.

Trying to address and redress concerns about police training is one hell of an institutional pickle.
Standards and practices of every American occupation are primarily governed by the statistical policing and demands made by insurance companies for liability coverage.
Code and conduct is most heavily influenced by the contracts made with trade, and public service unions.

The bittersweet irony of Progressive complaint about inherent behavior problems and character deficiencies in any particular American occupation is digesting their ignorance, willful and otherwise, of the fact that their complaints are mostly programmed into the format by their own policies and regulatory bodies.

The boot makers are blaming the leather tanners for the flaws in the boot's design.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

first you have to explain whether you mean police (the concept), the police (the institution), or the police (the group).

[Atlantic Federalist Republic]

first you have to explain whether you mean police (the concept), the police (the institution), or the police (the group).

I don't even know the differences between these shits.
For me the police are a "group" maintained by the government.

[Free Ravensburg]

Cops aren’t in a pure black and white area, as it’s just a grey mess, but mall cops on the other hand

[Ifreann]

first you have to explain whether you mean police (the concept), the police (the institution), or the police (the group).

Or the police(the band).

[Informed Consent]

first you have to explain whether you mean police (the concept), the police (the institution), or the police (the group).

Or the police(the band).

You don't have to put on the red light
Those days are over
You don't have to sell your body to the night

[Bistritza]

Present this thread with a widely accepted sociological theory among scholars, provide medicinal research group evidence and they will avoid responding to you.
Let me make one basic thing very clear to everyone spouting ''it depends''.

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It doesn't depend. Neither individual LEO's nor you are somehow isolated from your society. The individual is formed not from some transcendental a priori set of features. All individuals are formed from a variety of factors including cultural norms, microsocietal/parental values, sensual experiences and how your cognition processes them at any point during your life. You can draw generalizations from these factors. Discrimination begins when you add whether they are virile or not.

LOE's are especially prone to being heavily influenced by one factor (their profession) through the use of uniformization.
So please, don't try to ride your redundant high horse with ''it depends''. You have no idea how much of a regression you're causing by pushing that narrative and ignoring the amount of research gone into intersectional and structural theories who are trying to actually solve the issue of political radicalization.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Where I’m from I’d say that most are heroes, and important pillars of every community. But every country, hell even different cities in the same country, have different experiences with the police. Sometimes it’s used to help people in need, sometimes it’s used by dictators to oppress the people, and sometimes they should be put on leash. As most people have said, it depends.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

^This.

The world isn't all black and white, and the cops are not some kind of hivemind. They are people, and people can be both good and bad.

...but they did sign up to enforce a fundamentally racist system, intentionally or not.

To go with a dramatic example, would you consider it fair to say that people who willingly join the Taliban are villains?

How is arresting criminals racist? Lol

[GB and Northern Ireland]

More on the side of heroes than villains, but then again, they aren’t really either.

The police should be better organized and better trained.

[Thermodolia]

Vast majority of the time they are villains, but you’ll find a handful that aren’t

[Thermodolia]

That depends entirely on the individual officer(s).

And sometimes departments.

Because I’ve known departments that are filled to the brim with assholes and the department encourages it. Means any good apple is quickly leaving for greener pastures