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SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

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Ifreann
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:20 am

Ferrous Oxide wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.


Wrong.

Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?
The_pantless_hero wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.

Circular reasoning. It was biased because no blacks passed. But why was it biased? Because no blacks passed. Uh no, sorry. That is a valid point to start an investigation, not a valid one to make a decision.

And you'll have a point if I say that. It looks biased because no blacks passed(but apparently at least one did), so the results should be disregarded pending an investigation.
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Barringtonia
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:21 am

New Limacon wrote:I am becoming more curious what the actual test was like.

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke"


David Duke, clearly.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:21 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:
Tiesabre wrote:Haven't you ever wondered why when a black person or other minority gets power, they surround themselves with their race. Because if they don't, the white man sure isn't.

I figured it was because they were racist and voluntarily segregationist like everyone else :roll:


Heh, touché. You can be racist towards the majority too. Hell, you can be racist towards your own kind as well!

I'll up the ante here: I'm not racist, I'm specieist; I don't like the whole human species. :P
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
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New Limacon
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby New Limacon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:27 am

Barringtonia wrote:
New Limacon wrote:I am becoming more curious what the actual test was like.

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke"


David Duke, clearly.

Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.
"It is a far, far better thing to have an anchor in nonsense than to push out to the troubled seas of thought."
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The_pantless_hero
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby The_pantless_hero » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:28 am

Araraukar wrote:
The_pantless_hero wrote:
Tiesabre wrote:Haven't you ever wondered why when a black person or other minority gets power, they surround themselves with their race. Because if they don't, the white man sure isn't.

I figured it was because they were racist and voluntarily segregationist like everyone else :roll:


Heh, touché. You can be racist towards the majority too. Hell, you can be racist towards your own kind as well!

I'll up the ante here: I'm not racist, I'm specieist; I don't like the whole human species. :P

That already have a term for that; it's misanthrope.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

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Ferrous Oxide
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Ferrous Oxide » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:28 am

Ifreann wrote:Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?


Two blacks did pass the test. They just didn't do well enough for officer consideration.

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Free Soviets
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Free Soviets » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:29 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.

Circular reasoning. It was biased because no blacks passed. But why was it biased? Because no blacks passed. Uh no, sorry. That is a valid point to start an investigation, not a valid one to make a decision.

the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test. thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet

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Dododecapod
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:31 am

Free Soviets wrote:the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test. thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet


But that is not what the city did.
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Barringtonia
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:32 am

New Limacon wrote:Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.


Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:35 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Ferrous Oxide wrote:Maybe they're not. Maybe they need to work at it.

maybe, but that seems inherently less likely than that there are other factors at play, particularly to do with the test not really measuring potential officeritude well at all and being structured in a way that gives an inherent advantage to people with more wealth and a multi-generational extended network of family and friends that have served as firefighters already. and since racism and segregation actually existed in the real world, it's going to turn out that white people disproportionately will have those advantages.


1) How do you know the white/hispanic people were richer than blacks? Maybe the blacks were all lazy sons of rich doctors and lawyers, who just thought that it'd get them girls if they were "hot firefighters"?

2) You can't cry racism only when it benefits the target group you like. What about Native Americans? Were any of them on the promotion list? No. And why? Because they didn't even take the bloody exam in the first place!

Study harder, cry less wolf.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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New Limacon
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby New Limacon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:36 am

Barringtonia wrote:
New Limacon wrote:Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.


Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?
"It is a far, far better thing to have an anchor in nonsense than to push out to the troubled seas of thought."
Gnomeragen wrote:i wasn't argueing over your realigon i was pronocing your stupidity

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Ifreann
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:36 am

Ferrous Oxide wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?


I just wanted to highlight a factual error

This is how I read it. Fair enough.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

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Dododecapod
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:38 am

New Limacon wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:
New Limacon wrote:Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.


Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?


All stand equal before the final gate...
GENERATION 28: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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Barringtonia
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:39 am

New Limacon wrote:Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?


Gosh, I hadn't thought of it like that but the way you put it..

Of course, who would provide the munchies?

EDIT: Moderators will never get this far, we're in for some free spam time!
Last edited by Barringtonia on Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:42 am

Neo Art wrote:an "argument clinic"? Where the hell do you think you are, exactly?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:44 am

Neo Art wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Why do you ASSUME there is an answer?


Because there is always an answer, to everything.


Is God black or white?

If you can't answer that question, how should we know if this particular group of black firefighters just weren't at one of their mates' bachelor party the previous night and were all hung over and thus did badly?

And why aren't you blaming the hispanics, two of whom made it to lieutenant rank scores?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:45 am

Neo Art wrote:Or, maybe, the test was biased. Do you know for sure it's not?


Or, maybe, the test wasn't biased. Do you know for sure it was?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Parthenon
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Parthenon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:47 am

New Limacon wrote:"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke


Trick question.

Back burning is a technique used by firefighters in forest fires to extinguish the fire by means of destroying the remaining flammable material inside a contained area.
Last edited by Parthenon on Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The_pantless_hero
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby The_pantless_hero » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:47 am

Free Soviets wrote:the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test.

That in and of itself is not a good argument. Nor does it make what ifreann said not circular reasoning. You flip a coin, 5 times. You expect roughly 2 heads and 2 tails. But that could be out of whack. You would have to flip the coin a large number of times to average out to 50% heads, 50% tails.

The problem is statistics are created thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet

That is a different thing altogether.
Bottle wrote:Equality is a slippery slope, people, and if you give it to the gays you have to give it to the polygamists and if you give it to the polygamists you have to give it to the serial dog molesters and if you give it to the serial dog molesters you have to give it to the machine fetishists and the next thing you know you're being tied up by a trio of polygamist lesbian powerbooks and you can't get out because the safety word is case sensistive!

Doing what we must because we can

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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:50 am

Soheran wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:Yes. Because otherwise you aren't setting a level playing field for everyone else


Of course you are. You just need a better test.


So you'll be wanting to do the test again and again and again, until all the spots for promotion have gone to blacks and hispanics. Maybe ask for the oral part of the test to have to be answered as rap rhymes? Seeing how "no white man can do rap well"?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Grays Harbor
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Grays Harbor » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:52 am

Neo Art wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:
Barringtonia wrote: I'm still waiting for yours.


go back and read my previous responses. I do not need to repeat myself ad nauseum because you want to make this the argument clinic.


an "argument clinic"? Where the hell do you think you are, exactly?


on occassion, given some of the discussions, smack dab in the middle of a monty python episode.
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Barringtonia
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:54 am

Araraukar wrote:So you'll be wanting to do the test again and again and again, until all the spots for promotion have gone to blacks and hispanics. Maybe ask for the oral part of the test to have to be answered as rap rhymes? Seeing how "no white man can do rap well"?


No, see, that would be discrimination against white people, given this is hypothetical, but the facts remain that historically, ongoing and on a starkly disparate basis, black people are not making the grade.

Is it just the test, possibly not, though for legal bases, the test is a focal point to address the wider issue.

Either you're saying black people are inherently unlikely to pass the required grade for promotion or something else is going on.

Which?
Last edited by Barringtonia on Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:55 am

Barringtonia wrote:Yet 16 out of 17 officers are white - though I'm not certain on that figure, at least 16 out of 17 officers are not black.


Maybe 15 out of 17 are hispanics. :P
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

User avatar
New Limacon
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby New Limacon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:56 am

Parthenon wrote:
New Limacon wrote:"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke


Trick question.

Back burning is a technique used by firefighters in forest fires to extinguish the fire by means of destroying the remaining flammable material inside a contained area.

I didn't think about that, but it's true. Well, no wonder the test results were skewed. The test, assuming it was 100% like the one I just created out of thin air, is just a single trick question!
"It is a far, far better thing to have an anchor in nonsense than to push out to the troubled seas of thought."
Gnomeragen wrote:i wasn't argueing over your realigon i was pronocing your stupidity

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Araraukar
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Re: SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:58 am

The_pantless_hero wrote:There are two babies in the room. Do you save the white baby or black baby first?

I'm sorry, the answer was the white baby.


Let's try again... there is a group of 10 new mothers in one room, 7 of whom are white, 2 blacks and 1 hispanic.

Next room is a room where there are two babies, one black and one white.

Baby room is set on fire. The mothers are allowed to rush in one at a time to rescue 1 baby.

Which baby gets rescued more often?

Given that most of the mothers are white, you would expect white baby to get rescued more often. Now is that a normal expectation or are the white moms expected to be racist towards their own race and rescue the black baby more often?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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