SCOTUS rules for white firefighters in reverse bias case

[Ifreann]

Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.

Wrong.

Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?

Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.

Circular reasoning. It was biased because no blacks passed. But why was it biased? Because no blacks passed. Uh no, sorry. That is a valid point to start an investigation, not a valid one to make a decision.

And you'll have a point if I say that. It looks biased because no blacks passed(but apparently at least one did), so the results should be disregarded pending an investigation.

[Barringtonia]

I am becoming more curious what the actual test was like.

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke"

David Duke, clearly.

[Araraukar]

Haven't you ever wondered why when a black person or other minority gets power, they surround themselves with their race. Because if they don't, the white man sure isn't.

I figured it was because they were racist and voluntarily segregationist like everyone else

Heh, touché. You can be racist towards the majority too. Hell, you can be racist towards your own kind as well!

I'll up the ante here: I'm not racist, I'm specieist; I don't like the whole human species.

[New Limacon]

I am becoming more curious what the actual test was like.

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke"

David Duke, clearly.

Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.

[The_pantless_hero]

Haven't you ever wondered why when a black person or other minority gets power, they surround themselves with their race. Because if they don't, the white man sure isn't.

I figured it was because they were racist and voluntarily segregationist like everyone else

Heh, touché. You can be racist towards the majority too. Hell, you can be racist towards your own kind as well!

I'll up the ante here: I'm not racist, I'm specieist; I don't like the whole human species.

That already have a term for that; it's misanthrope.

[Ferrous Oxide]

Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?

Two blacks did pass the test. They just didn't do well enough for officer consideration.

[Free Soviets]

Exhibit A: No blacks passed the test.

Circular reasoning. It was biased because no blacks passed. But why was it biased? Because no blacks passed. Uh no, sorry. That is a valid point to start an investigation, not a valid one to make a decision.

the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test. thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet

[Dododecapod]

the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test. thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet

But that is not what the city did.

[Barringtonia]

Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.

Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

[Araraukar]

Maybe they're not. Maybe they need to work at it.

maybe, but that seems inherently less likely than that there are other factors at play, particularly to do with the test not really measuring potential officeritude well at all and being structured in a way that gives an inherent advantage to people with more wealth and a multi-generational extended network of family and friends that have served as firefighters already. and since racism and segregation actually existed in the real world, it's going to turn out that white people disproportionately will have those advantages.

1) How do you know the white/hispanic people were richer than blacks? Maybe the blacks were all lazy sons of rich doctors and lawyers, who just thought that it'd get them girls if they were "hot firefighters"?

2) You can't cry racism only when it benefits the target group you like. What about Native Americans? Were any of them on the promotion list? No. And why? Because they didn't even take the bloody exam in the first place!

Study harder, cry less wolf.

[New Limacon]

Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.

Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?

[Ifreann]

Do you have any response to the point I was making, or do you just want to highlight a factual error?

I just wanted to highlight a factual error

This is how I read it. Fair enough.

[Dododecapod]

Ah, see, that's why you wouldn't pass the test. The correct answer was "c) More fire," for if history has taught us anything, it's that fighting fire with fire makes the whole world not burn and live in perfect harmony.

Nonsense, it comes down to cookies,

Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.

Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?

All stand equal before the final gate...

[Barringtonia]

Are you saying there would be racial harmony if we were all baked?

Gosh, I hadn't thought of it like that but the way you put it..

Of course, who would provide the munchies?

EDIT: Moderators will never get this far, we're in for some free spam time!

[Araraukar]

an "argument clinic"? Where the hell do you think you are, exactly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Araraukar]

Why do you ASSUME there is an answer?

Because there is always an answer, to everything.

Is God black or white?

If you can't answer that question, how should we know if this particular group of black firefighters just weren't at one of their mates' bachelor party the previous night and were all hung over and thus did badly?

And why aren't you blaming the hispanics, two of whom made it to lieutenant rank scores?

[Araraukar]

Or, maybe, the test was biased. Do you know for sure it's not?

Or, maybe, the test wasn't biased. Do you know for sure it was?

[Parthenon]

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke

Trick question.

Back burning is a technique used by firefighters in forest fires to extinguish the fire by means of destroying the remaining flammable material inside a contained area.

[The_pantless_hero]

the reasoning is actually that without some good reason to believe otherwise, we should expect roughly the same percentage of people from all groups to pass the test.

That in and of itself is not a good argument. Nor does it make what ifreann said not circular reasoning. You flip a coin, 5 times. You expect roughly 2 heads and 2 tails. But that could be out of whack. You would have to flip the coin a large number of times to average out to 50% heads, 50% tails.

The problem is statistics are created thus the fact that white firefighters were about twice as likely to pass the test as black and latino firefighters sends up an immediate red flag and looks like a good reason to not base any promotion decisions on that test just yet

That is a different thing altogether.

[Araraukar]

Yes. Because otherwise you aren't setting a level playing field for everyone else

Of course you are. You just need a better test.

So you'll be wanting to do the test again and again and again, until all the spots for promotion have gone to blacks and hispanics. Maybe ask for the oral part of the test to have to be answered as rap rhymes? Seeing how "no white man can do rap well"?

[Grays Harbor]

I'm still waiting for yours.

go back and read my previous responses. I do not need to repeat myself ad nauseum because you want to make this the argument clinic.

an "argument clinic"? Where the hell do you think you are, exactly?

on occassion, given some of the discussions, smack dab in the middle of a monty python episode.

[Barringtonia]

So you'll be wanting to do the test again and again and again, until all the spots for promotion have gone to blacks and hispanics. Maybe ask for the oral part of the test to have to be answered as rap rhymes? Seeing how "no white man can do rap well"?

No, see, that would be discrimination against white people, given this is hypothetical, but the facts remain that historically, ongoing and on a starkly disparate basis, black people are not making the grade.

Is it just the test, possibly not, though for legal bases, the test is a focal point to address the wider issue.

Either you're saying black people are inherently unlikely to pass the required grade for promotion or something else is going on.

Which?

[Araraukar]

Yet 16 out of 17 officers are white - though I'm not certain on that figure, at least 16 out of 17 officers are not black.

Maybe 15 out of 17 are hispanics.

[New Limacon]

"Q1. Which of the following should be used to put out fires?
a) Water
b) Gasoline
c) More fire
d) David Duke

Trick question.

Back burning is a technique used by firefighters in forest fires to extinguish the fire by means of destroying the remaining flammable material inside a contained area.

I didn't think about that, but it's true. Well, no wonder the test results were skewed. The test, assuming it was 100% like the one I just created out of thin air, is just a single trick question!

[Araraukar]

There are two babies in the room. Do you save the white baby or black baby first?

I'm sorry, the answer was the white baby.

Let's try again... there is a group of 10 new mothers in one room, 7 of whom are white, 2 blacks and 1 hispanic.

Next room is a room where there are two babies, one black and one white.

Baby room is set on fire. The mothers are allowed to rush in one at a time to rescue 1 baby.

Which baby gets rescued more often?

Given that most of the mothers are white, you would expect white baby to get rescued more often. Now is that a normal expectation or are the white moms expected to be racist towards their own race and rescue the black baby more often?