American Politics IV: 1400 Reasons Why(A Stimulus Serial)

[Kilobugya]

I guess the question is whether doing war crimes directly is better than setting the stage for even worse things to happen in the future. There isn't really a concrete answer to that question, but in my opinion doing either should result in a permanent ban from the moral high ground. That's what I'm objecting to - Bush implying that his own hands are clean.

Bush blasting at Trump from a moral high ground feels a bit like someone beating his kids blasting someone for beating his wife. Or a serial killer taking the moral high ground against a serial rapist. Just "well, you're right what that guy did was horrible, but you're really not the one to say it".

[Kilobugya]

Something that fell through the cracks this week...

The Arkansas Legislature passed a bill that would allow doctors to refuse any kind of treatments to patients that go against their religious beliefs

That's a direct violation of Hippocratic Oath. Any doctor who refuses treatment to someone for such a reason should be immediately stripped from his right to exercise medicine. And sued for perjury.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Something that fell through the cracks this week...

The Arkansas Legislature passed a bill that would allow doctors to refuse any kind of treatments to patients that go against their religious beliefs

Isn’t doctors refusing treatment like that against federal law?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Biden becomes Gerald Ford

Stairs: 1
Democrats: 0

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

Something that fell through the cracks this week...

The Arkansas Legislature passed a bill that would allow doctors to refuse any kind of treatments to patients that go against their religious beliefs

so trans healthcare and abortion in arkansas just died

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

That said, I wouldn’t say it’s “dead”. There are plenty of non-religious professionals as well as religious professionals too that are open minded about such things.

[Kilobugya]

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

No, they don't. The day they take the Hippocratic Oath the well-being of their patient becomes more important than any religious belief they can have. They are free to believe in whatever they want, and worship as they wish in their private life, but when they are doctors in front a patient, the needs of the patient should be their only consideration. Or they shouldn't be doctors, and shouldn't have taken the Oath.

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

No, they don't. The day they take the Hippocratic Oath the well-being of their patient becomes more important than any religious belief they can have. They are free to believe in whatever they want, and worship as they wish in their private life, but when they are doctors in front a patient, the needs of the patient should be their only consideration. Or they shouldn't be doctors, and shouldn't have taken the Oath.

I’ll admit I am a little conflicted on this one.

Religious freedoms are a first amendment right which are precious, that said all MD’s do have a responsibility to their patients as you’ve pointed out. Best solution? What I underlined in your post. But that’s not going to happen.

[Ifreann]

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

No, they don't. The day they take the Hippocratic Oath the well-being of their patient becomes more important than any religious belief they can have. They are free to believe in whatever they want, and worship as they wish in their private life, but when they are doctors in front a patient, the needs of the patient should be their only consideration. Or they shouldn't be doctors, and shouldn't have taken the Oath.

Doctors don't actually take the Hippocratic oath.

[Vassenor]

So we're back to fee-fees trumping professional ethics?

[The Black Forrest]

I guess the question is whether doing war crimes directly is better than setting the stage for even worse things to happen in the future. There isn't really a concrete answer to that question, but in my opinion doing either should result in a permanent ban from the moral high ground. That's what I'm objecting to - Bush implying that his own hands are clean.

Bush blasting at Trump from a moral high ground feels a bit like someone beating his kids blasting someone for beating his wife. Or a serial killer taking the moral high ground against a serial rapist. Just "well, you're right what that guy did was horrible, but you're really not the one to say it".

Hmmmm? so who are the people who are allowed to criticize trump?

[The Black Forrest]

so trans healthcare and abortion in arkansas just died

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

That said, I wouldn’t say it’s “dead”. There are plenty of non-religious professionals as well as religious professionals too that are open minded about such things.

They shouldn’t be doctors then. There is enough other work to protect their feelings.

[The Black Forrest]

Something that fell through the cracks this week...

The Arkansas Legislature passed a bill that would allow doctors to refuse any kind of treatments to patients that go against their religious beliefs

Isn’t doctors refusing treatment like that against federal law?

No. It’s only a problem when a doctor refuses in life threatening situations.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Isn’t doctors refusing treatment like that against federal law?

No. It’s only a problem when a doctor refuses in life threatening situations.

Well it should be then.

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

Regardless of personal stance on this, those doctors do have a right to avoid practices that conflict with their religious stances IMO, be they Christian, Muslim, or any other.

That said, I wouldn’t say it’s “dead”. There are plenty of non-religious professionals as well as religious professionals too that are open minded about such things.

They shouldn’t be doctors then. There is enough other work to protect their feelings.

Plainly practical but as I said to Kilobugya that’s not going to happen.

[The Black Forrest]

They shouldn’t be doctors then. There is enough other work to protect their feelings.

Plainly practical but as I said to Kilobugya that’s not going to happen.

Indeed. One of the reasons I left religion was after realizing how much hate exists in it. Speaking of the modern era of course......

[Kenzo-Cyprii]

Plainly practical but as I said to Kilobugya that’s not going to happen.

Indeed. One of the reasons I left religion was after realizing how much hate exists in it. Speaking of the modern era of course......

Hmmmm, I’m divided on that myself. Modern religious scenes aren’t strictly sunshine, clouds, and bunnies but personally it’s still more peaceful and coexistent than in centuries past.

[Kilobugya]

Doctors don't actually take the Hippocratic oath.

Really ? Here they do.

[Kilobugya]

Hmmmm? so who are the people who are allowed to criticize trump?

I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to criticize Trump, but that it does feel somewhat hypocritical from one unrepentant criminal to criticize another for doing a different kind of crime.

[Vassenor]

So the GOP is now so anti-democracy that restricting voting rights is now the party's top priority, even ahead of abortion and guns.

[Kilobugya]

So the GOP is now so anti-democracy that restricting voting rights is now the party's top priority, even ahead of abortion and guns.

They are right in one aspect: with fair voting laws, it'll be almost impossible for the current incarnation of the GOP to win nation-wide elections (House, Senate or Presidential). Of course, the problem is in the GOP, not in having fair voting laws, but you can't except them to admit it.

[The Reformed American Republic]

So the GOP is now so anti-democracy that restricting voting rights is now the party's top priority, even ahead of abortion and guns.

They are right in one aspect: with fair voting laws, it'll be almost impossible for the current incarnation of the GOP to win nation-wide elections (House, Senate or Presidential). Of course, the problem is in the GOP, not in having fair voting laws, but you can't except them to admit it.

I use the term "fascist" extremely sparingly, but I think the party is liable into becoming outright fascist or similar enough where a distinction isn't important. I'm not even leftist, and I'm saying this.

[Shrillland]

Doctors don't actually take the Hippocratic oath.

Really ? Here they do.

Meaning they don't take the classic version of the oath where you swear to Apollo and vow never to give an abortion as long as you live. NSG being NSG, everything must be literal.

[Kilobugya]

Really ? Here they do.

Meaning they don't take the classic version of the oath where you swear to Apollo and vow never to give an abortion as long as you live. NSG being NSG, everything must be literal.

Ah yes, they use a modern version of it here. But the spirit remains.

[Ifreann]

Doctors don't actually take the Hippocratic oath.

Really ? Here they do.

They might take some kind of oath, but given that the Hippocratic oath was written with Ancient Greek society in mind, quite a bit of it wouldn't really work in the modern era.

I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer’s oath, but to nobody else.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I break it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.

Can't imagine there are a lot of doctors swearing by the Greek gods to teach medicine to the children of their med school lecturers for free.

But pedantry aside, flowery oaths that people take when they graduate don't really matter, what matters is the code of ethics governing their profession.

[Kilobugya]

They might take some kind of oath, but given that the Hippocratic oath was written with Ancient Greek society in mind, quite a bit of it wouldn't really work in the modern era.

We tend to call "Serment d'Hippocrate" ("Hippocratic Oath") any kind of solemn oath that doctors take before graduating and that respects mostly the values of the historical oath, but adapted to modern society. And here at least it's considered something very important that doctors have to respect, not just a purely symbolic/ceremonial thing.