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The Death Penalty: Justified or Immoral?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Is the Death Penalty justified?

Yes
31
42%
No
42
58%
 
Total votes : 73

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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:33 am

There is a big difference as to whether or not an individual deserves to die and to whether or not implementing capital punishment is a good idea.

I believe that there are some henious murderers such as the likes of Harold Shipman, Nikolas Cruz, Dylann Roof, Ted Bundy, and the Wests that absolutely do deserve to die, but in reality implementing the death penalty against them was/is/would be a very bad idea for four reasons:

1. It's costly - it costs around four times as much to conduct a death penalty case than to conduct a life imprisonment case. I'm not sure about you, but I'd be fine with substituting the death penalty with life imprisonment even when the defendant deserves it if the money that would be spent on pursuing the death penalty can be spent better elsewhere.

2. It means that we can kill innocent people - in my view, executing people who deserve death is not worth the potential cost killing innocent people.

3. It cannot be properly executed humanely.

4. It carries an unacceptable racial bias when properly applied, and we have time and time again seen especially in the US people (typically white) getting life sentences for crimes as severe as murdering their entire family due to arrangements such as plea bargains and others (typically black) getting the death penalty for far less henious murders.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:44 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Ifreann wrote:If you're writing off the deaths of innocent people as statistically irrelevant then what is even your problem with these people who supposedly don't deserve to live? Are they getting executed for not filling out the proper forms before killing a statistically insignificant number of people?


Every single system leads to innocents being wronged in one way or another. That's just a result of human imperfection. The ideal is to simply make that number as small as possible, which is fully possible even with the death penalty.

Except - shocker! - eliminating the death penalty would make that number even smaller!
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:47 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Every single system leads to innocents being wronged in one way or another. That's just a result of human imperfection. The ideal is to simply make that number as small as possible, which is fully possible even with the death penalty.

Except - shocker! - eliminating the death penalty would make that number even smaller!


Not in any relevant way. Less than 50 people are executed per year in the US.

Ifreann wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Every single system leads to innocents being wronged in one way or another. That's just a result of human imperfection. The ideal is to simply make that number as small as possible, which is fully possible even with the death penalty.

People who are wrongly imprisoned can be freed. People who are wrongly fined can have their money returned. People wrongly executed are dead forever.


Man you should look into stories who are freed after decades of wrongful imprisonment. It's not exactly a mercy.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 am

Turelisa- wrote:Wherever this penalty is absent there is accordingly an unchecked tendency among the reprobate type.

Source? WHat do you mean by "reprobate type?"
Since they can't develop a moral conscience,

Source?
their general motive of rational self-interest can only be influenced by the strongest motive present in human nature, which is self-preservation, and accordingly the only punishment for taking a human life, and in such a wanton, merciless way, is forfeiture of the life of the convicted murderer.

A) This does not follow.
B)Should all people convicted of murder be put to death?
C) Why is that the "only punishment?"
The recent murder in my city of a young man, whose life was still ahead of him, by a pack of mindless brutes wandering the streets looking for somebody, anybody vulnerable to beat up and slaughter with knives attests to my conviction.
Any questions?

Got a link to anything about that case?
Assuming you're not exaggerating, what makes you think that that is a typical case?
Last edited by Necroghastia on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:54 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Except - shocker! - eliminating the death penalty would make that number even smaller!


Not in any relevant way. Less than 50 people are executed per year in the US.

I'm sure those executed under false convictions would take comfort in knowing they are irrelevant :)
That's sarcasm. There's no such god damned thing as a life taken without cause being irrelevant.
Ifreann wrote:People who are wrongly imprisoned can be freed. People who are wrongly fined can have their money returned. People wrongly executed are dead forever.


Man you should look into stories who are freed after decades of wrongful imprisonment. It's not exactly a mercy.

More of a mercy than dying needlessly.
Last edited by Necroghastia on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:56 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Not in any relevant way. Less than 50 people are executed per year in the US.

I'm sure those executed under false convictions would take comfort in knowing they are irrelevant :)
That's sarcasm. There's no such god damned thing as a life taken without cause being irrelevant.


There literally is though. That's how statistics works.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:02 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:I'm sure those executed under false convictions would take comfort in knowing they are irrelevant :)
That's sarcasm. There's no such god damned thing as a life taken without cause being irrelevant.


There literally is though. That's how statistics works.

Statistics shows us that with a death penalty in place, innocent people will be put to death for crimes they did not commit.
Statistics also tells us that without the death penalty, no innocent people will be put to death for crimes they did not commit.
Can you really not see how one is better than the other?
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FutureAmerica
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Postby FutureAmerica » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:26 pm

Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.

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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:29 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.

That sounds far more immoral and impractical.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:30 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Totally justified. Plenty of people simply do not deserve to live.




Who are we to say that someone deserves to live or die? There have been some people who some said "Deserved to die" yet they either A turned their lives around or B their seemly "Negative actions" had positive effects.

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FutureAmerica
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Postby FutureAmerica » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:36 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
FutureAmerica wrote:Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.

That sounds far more immoral and impractical.


Who is the moral police in this situation? Who gets to say what is moral? Are criminals moral?

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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:38 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:That sounds far more immoral and impractical.


Who is the moral police in this situation? Who gets to say what is moral? Are criminals moral?

Presumably everyone, but I don't see how, if execution is cruel, how lobotomy isn't more cruel and unusual, as well as violating medical ethics.
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Rawlsian socialist and Constitutional Monarchist. Absolute pacifist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize

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Turelisa-
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Founded: Sep 25, 2020
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Postby Turelisa- » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:41 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:Got a link to anything about that case?
Assuming you're not exaggerating, what makes you think that that is a typical case?




There is an epidemic of fatal stabbings here in the UK.

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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:42 pm

Turelisa- wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:




There is an epidemic of fatal stabbings here in the UK.

You support stoning rebellious children?
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:43 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
FutureAmerica wrote:
Who is the moral police in this situation? Who gets to say what is moral? Are criminals moral?

Presumably everyone, but I don't see how, if execution is cruel, how lobotomy isn't more cruel and unusual, as well as violating medical ethics.


Well I assume it is because people have different morals. Now my morals may be different from others since I believe in a higher power and others who don't believe in god usually think that the death penalty is justified, although not all. Now I really want to hear from believers in an afterlife/god and tell me why some of you think the death penalty is ok? Shouldn't justice belong to god/ whoever rules rather than man which is clearly flawed?

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:46 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
FutureAmerica wrote:Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.

That sounds far more immoral and impractical.

Y'know what, I'm actually going to agree with you here. That's just... disgusting.
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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:47 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.


Lobotomy is a pseudoscientific barbarism. I think a murderer would rather choose death than submit to an existence of imbecility.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Turelisa- wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:




There is an epidemic of fatal stabbings here in the UK.

Probably the least important of the questions I asked.
Also why link your own twitter commentary instead of just the OP or an article or something?
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:50 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:That sounds far more immoral and impractical.

Y'know what, I'm actually going to agree with you here. That's just... disgusting.




Yeah taking sometimes intelligence as a punishment is terrible. You know maybe if there was a better mental heartcare system and if we find out how we can use their smarts for good rather than taking away their smarts then there would be less crime...

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Stylan
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Postby Stylan » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:50 pm

I don't really care lol

death penalty is one of those non-issues that really does not matter at all.
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FutureAmerica
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Postby FutureAmerica » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:51 pm

Turelisa- wrote:
FutureAmerica wrote:Instead of the death penalty, violent criminals and rapists should be lobotomized for their crimes. They can then be safely released back into society. The current system is immoral.


Lobotomy is a pseudoscientific barbarism. I think a murderer would rather choose death than submit to an existence of imbecility.


A lifetime of imprisonment is not barbarism? All these decisions are immoral.

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:52 pm

Stylan wrote:I don't really care lol

death penalty is one of those non-issues that really does not matter at all.

Why do innocent people being put to death not matter to you?
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:54 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Lobotomy is a pseudoscientific barbarism. I think a murderer would rather choose death than submit to an existence of imbecility.


A lifetime of imprisonment is not barbarism? All these decisions are immoral.

Less so than fucking lobotomy, holy shit.
Remember, the reason a lot of people have issues with the death penalty is that innocent people can be and are convicted of crimes they did not commit.
Last edited by Necroghastia on Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:54 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Lobotomy is a pseudoscientific barbarism. I think a murderer would rather choose death than submit to an existence of imbecility.


A lifetime of imprisonment is not barbarism? All these decisions are immoral.



Maybe instead of locking them up it can be kind of like a rehab center, where instead of treating you like your a evil animal they treat you like a patient, as I do believe Crime is a disease and its vectors are poor and unfournate people most of the time. Maybe instead of concrete floors and a small cell, we can give them rooms similar to an apartment, and give them more freedom. Maybe incorporate natural surroundings and allow for outdoor activity?

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Turelisa-
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Postby Turelisa- » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:


There is an epidemic of fatal stabbings here in the UK.

You support stoning rebellious children?


No. I've already said I support the death penalty for murder. I also think it appropriate for recidivists whose convictions are for serious crimes and demonstrate clearly a pattern of severe social maladjustment. (The Word 'son' in the quote means figuratively the offspring of society)

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