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The Death Penalty: Justified or Immoral?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is the Death Penalty justified?

Yes
31
42%
No
42
58%
 
Total votes : 73

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Saint Yosx
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The Death Penalty: Justified or Immoral?

Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:52 am

Back in the first governments and civilizations there were some sort of law in place, and punishments for those who did not follow the law. Now there was one punishment that was reserved for what that society or government thought as "The worst of crimes" which this form of punishment was death. Now how people killed criminals vary across the world and times, however the goal has stayed the same, put the criminal to death to pay for their crimes. Now as a believer in the bible I'm highly against murder of any kind including the death penalty since revenge in my opinion is up to god. However I do see some benefits to the death penalty as well. But what do you think NSG? Is the death penalty ok? And if it is in what cases?

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Postby Ifreann » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:16 am

I don't think it's justified to take someone who we have already neutralised as a threat to others, someone we have locked in a cell in a guarded prison, and execute that person. I don't think it matters what crimes they have done, if we can use less than lethal force to keep them from harming others then we should not use lethal force.

But even if you disagree with me, if you believe that some crimes are so abominable that the perpetrator cannot retain the right to life, then I would say that you should still oppose the death penalty. Whatever you think about the morality of executing certain people, as a practical matter it is just not possible to have a criminal justice system that never returns false convictions. If you have capital punishment, then you will, inevitably, execute innocent people. No human system can ever be perfect. We can have all the forensic science advances you could dream of and we'll still have cops, judges, and juries who are biased or corrupt or incompetent.
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Postby Esheaun Stroakuss » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:18 am

It is immoral and hypocritical.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:42 am

Ifreann wrote:I don't think it's justified to take someone who we have already neutralised as a threat to others, someone we have locked in a cell in a guarded prison, and execute that person. I don't think it matters what crimes they have done, if we can use less than lethal force to keep them from harming others then we should not use lethal force.

But even if you disagree with me, if you believe that some crimes are so abominable that the perpetrator cannot retain the right to life, then I would say that you should still oppose the death penalty. Whatever you think about the morality of executing certain people, as a practical matter it is just not possible to have a criminal justice system that never returns false convictions. If you have capital punishment, then you will, inevitably, execute innocent people. No human system can ever be perfect. We can have all the forensic science advances you could dream of and we'll still have cops, judges, and juries who are biased or corrupt or incompetent.



Agreed 100%. The most disturbing thing about the people who support the death penalty is that many of them are Christians. Now believe what you wanna believe, but personally to me revenge is up to god, rather than the government. God decides when you die not a nation. If your against abortion you should be against the death penalty, since both have souls. My bible says that anybody can be saves and there is no person that cannot be saved. Maybe your religion says otherwise and I respect that. But my beliefs that death penalty is wrong.

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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:50 am

Completely justified but it should only be used for extreme case criminals.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:51 am

Nobody deserves the death penalty.
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:54 am

Nejii wrote:Completely justified but it should only be used for extreme case criminals.



What would be consided extreme cases? I mean back as soon as 300 years ago, somebody who was a witch supposedly and who said Heresy about god could get killed as that was seen as a extreme case.

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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:57 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Nobody deserves the death penalty.


Not even Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Andrei Chikatilo, or Ed Gein? And what of Hermann Goring or other Nazi figureheads?
Last edited by Nejii on Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:58 am

Saint Yosx wrote:
Nejii wrote:Completely justified but it should only be used for extreme case criminals.



What would be consided extreme cases? I mean back as soon as 300 years ago, somebody who was a witch supposedly and who said Heresy about god could get killed as that was seen as a extreme case.


Which was insanity.

Look at my previous post. Nazis and serial killers.

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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:58 am

Nejii wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Nobody deserves the death penalty.


Not even Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Andrei Chikatilo, Ed Gein? And what Hermann Goring or other Nazi figureheads?



Well Ted Bundy actually got into his crimes after being exposed to adult content and had thoughts of torturing women. I feel that its a mental problem issue and resorting to killing these people instead of treating them is quite terrible.

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Nejii
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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:03 pm

Saint Yosx wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Not even Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Andrei Chikatilo, Ed Gein? And what Hermann Goring or other Nazi figureheads?



Well Ted Bundy actually got into his crimes after being exposed to adult content and had thoughts of torturing women. I feel that its a mental problem issue and resorting to killing these people instead of treating them is quite terrible.


Hmm...

True, many serial killers are mentally ill. But many are just sick, vindictive, ill-meaning people.

Tell me, were the Nazi's "treatable"? Should the entirety of the Nazi brass have been considered "sick and in need of help"? I ask this honestly not peevishly, as I'm quite curious.

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Postby Nuroblav » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:04 pm

I think Ifreann and ES cleared up everything here.

This is also an interesting article I found on the matter.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:17 pm

Nejii wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

Well Ted Bundy actually got into his crimes after being exposed to adult content and had thoughts of torturing women. I feel that its a mental problem issue and resorting to killing these people instead of treating them is quite terrible.


Hmm...

True, many serial killers are mentally ill. But many are just sick, vindictive, ill-meaning people.

Tell me, were the Nazi's "treatable"? Should the entirety of the Nazi brass have been considered "sick and in need of help"? I ask this honestly not peevishly, as I'm quite curious.



Let me put it to you in this way... I get why you feel that way about Nazi's but I want you to think about it like this.( Btw I am not excusing anything the Nazi's believe in just explaining why they believed it and how it happened so don't think I support Nazism because I don't)
Germany was struggling from the after effects of world war I. They had to pay millions and billions of dollars in debt which just a couple years ago was paid off in full. The value of the Mark, the currency of Germany was little to nothing. People were struggling and were looking for a leader. Suddenly a man said that he knew why the people were struggling ( he claimed and he was dead wrong) and aid he could restore the nation to its former glory. He spoke good and hope about the German people saying how good they were. Now looking from a Jew's or American's standpoint you may say "But I would never believe that..." But so many times we hear charismatic Populist leaders that give hope and solutions to complex problems. I think many Nazis not all but most were misguided, lied to, and tricked into believing in a false and weak idea of Nationalistic pride. I

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Postby Necroghastia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:39 pm

Ifreann wrote:I don't think it's justified to take someone who we have already neutralised as a threat to others, someone we have locked in a cell in a guarded prison, and execute that person. I don't think it matters what crimes they have done, if we can use less than lethal force to keep them from harming others then we should not use lethal force.

But even if you disagree with me, if you believe that some crimes are so abominable that the perpetrator cannot retain the right to life, then I would say that you should still oppose the death penalty. Whatever you think about the morality of executing certain people, as a practical matter it is just not possible to have a criminal justice system that never returns false convictions. If you have capital punishment, then you will, inevitably, execute innocent people. No human system can ever be perfect. We can have all the forensic science advances you could dream of and we'll still have cops, judges, and juries who are biased or corrupt or incompetent.

Well said.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:47 pm

Nejii wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Nobody deserves the death penalty.


Not even Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Andrei Chikatilo, or Ed Gein? And what of Hermann Goring or other Nazi figureheads?
none of them deserve. The bad behavior I will do when I empathize with the families of the victims does not necessarily mean that my behavior is correct. human life is valuable no matter what.
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:49 pm

I don't believe that it is morally acceptable for a Christian society to employ capital punishment where there practical alternatives. The death penalty may have been a necessary sanction in the past, when the infrastructure didn't exist to confine criminals indefinitely and policing was less efficient; in such societies, it may have been the case (or at least seemed to be the case) that deterrence by harshly punishing crimes was the only way to maintain law and order. Today, however, we have the capability to imprison criminals for long periods of time, ensuring that they cannot pose a continued risk to the public. Under these circumstances I don't believe that taking a person's life, and therefore taking from them any further chance to repent of their crimes, can be justified within a Christian moral framework. That is in addition to the issue of false convictions. A person who is imprisoned after being falsely convicted of a crime can at least be released and compensated for their ordeal should new evidence come to light that exonerates them; you can't give someone their life back once it has been taken from them.

In short, I don't necessarily think that capital punishment is inherently and always wrong, but I don't think it can be justified in modern Western society.
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Postby Zul-ar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:50 pm

Nejii wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Nobody deserves the death penalty.


Not even Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Andrei Chikatilo, or Ed Gein? And what of Hermann Goring or other Nazi figureheads?


Is death really the worst you can do to them? How about decades of rotting away in a cell, accompanied by nothing but their own thoughts and guards who hate their guts?

And putting our own thoughts aside about the worst possible fate, we should consider their thoughts. Some maniac who thinks he was specially chosen by god to kick puppies and murder babies will rejoice at leaving Earth to go frolic in heaven, while he may despise the idea of being stuck here for fifty more years.

What I'm trying to say is, suffering is subjective. We don't know if death is a punishment from a murderer's perspective, or salvation. So why kill them if it won't accomplish any suffering on their end?

Schadenfreude, or just to make us feel better about it is definitely an answer, but is that worth risking the possibility of making a mistake and murdering an innocent person? In my opinion, no. Justice boners aren't worth as much as lives.
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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:57 pm

Saint Yosx wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Hmm...

True, many serial killers are mentally ill. But many are just sick, vindictive, ill-meaning people.

Tell me, were the Nazi's "treatable"? Should the entirety of the Nazi brass have been considered "sick and in need of help"? I ask this honestly not peevishly, as I'm quite curious.



Let me put it to you in this way... I get why you feel that way about Nazi's but I want you to think about it like this.( Btw I am not excusing anything the Nazi's believe in just explaining why they believed it and how it happened so don't think I support Nazism because I don't)
Germany was struggling from the after effects of world war I. They had to pay millions and billions of dollars in debt which just a couple years ago was paid off in full. The value of the Mark, the currency of Germany was little to nothing. People were struggling and were looking for a leader. Suddenly a man said that he knew why the people were struggling ( he claimed and he was dead wrong) and aid he could restore the nation to its former glory. He spoke good and hope about the German people saying how good they were. Now looking from a Jew's or American's standpoint you may say "But I would never believe that..." But so many times we hear charismatic Populist leaders that give hope and solutions to complex problems. I think many Nazis not all but most were misguided, lied to, and tricked into believing in a false and weak idea of Nationalistic pride. I


Those are fair points.

Still, there is a thing called a conscience. One has to wonder how many top tier Nazi's deep down were conflicted by their actions but brushed these conflictions aside for a twisted agenda and personal gain. Mental illness is a huge impactor in the field of killers and genocide, but even so, I doubt even half of certifiable murderers are suffering from a true mental illness. Many people use the term "ill" as a simple cover for "there are bad and evil people in the world". Schizophrenia is a mental illness, being cruel is a lack of humanity and compassion.

I'm not one of those types that believes that every single criminal should come up for the death penalty, but in my opinion, there are some people who just don't deserve to be in this world and continue to threaten and harm others. Mind you I am selective with this. Try not to envision me as some axe-wielding Judge Roy Bean. I do sympathize with those that are clinically insane and they should be locked away and properly treated. But someone who rapes and murders/tortures young children with a smile on their face shouldn't be victimized.
Last edited by Nejii on Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Punished UMN » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:57 pm

I don't really think it's an either or question nor do I think a dichotomy between justification and immorality is as black and white as you make it.
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Postby Punished UMN » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:59 pm

Ifreann wrote:I don't think it's justified to take someone who we have already neutralised as a threat to others, someone we have locked in a cell in a guarded prison, and execute that person. I don't think it matters what crimes they have done, if we can use less than lethal force to keep them from harming others then we should not use lethal force.

But even if you disagree with me, if you believe that some crimes are so abominable that the perpetrator cannot retain the right to life, then I would say that you should still oppose the death penalty. Whatever you think about the morality of executing certain people, as a practical matter it is just not possible to have a criminal justice system that never returns false convictions. If you have capital punishment, then you will, inevitably, execute innocent people. No human system can ever be perfect. We can have all the forensic science advances you could dream of and we'll still have cops, judges, and juries who are biased or corrupt or incompetent.

Not if it is abolished for ordinary crimes but only retained for extraordinary ones.
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Saint Yosx
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:00 pm

Nejii wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:

Let me put it to you in this way... I get why you feel that way about Nazi's but I want you to think about it like this.( Btw I am not excusing anything the Nazi's believe in just explaining why they believed it and how it happened so don't think I support Nazism because I don't)
Germany was struggling from the after effects of world war I. They had to pay millions and billions of dollars in debt which just a couple years ago was paid off in full. The value of the Mark, the currency of Germany was little to nothing. People were struggling and were looking for a leader. Suddenly a man said that he knew why the people were struggling ( he claimed and he was dead wrong) and aid he could restore the nation to its former glory. He spoke good and hope about the German people saying how good they were. Now looking from a Jew's or American's standpoint you may say "But I would never believe that..." But so many times we hear charismatic Populist leaders that give hope and solutions to complex problems. I think many Nazis not all but most were misguided, lied to, and tricked into believing in a false and weak idea of Nationalistic pride. I


Those are fair points.

Still, there is a thing called a conscience. One has to wonder how many top tier Nazi's deep down were conflicted by their actions but brushed these conflictions aside for a twisted agenda and personal gain. Mental illness is a huge impactor in the field of killers and genocide, but even so, I doubt even half of certifiable murderers are suffering from a true mental illness. Many people use the term "ill" as a simple cover for "there are bad and evil people in the world". Schizophrenia is a mental illness, being cruel is a lack of humanity and compassion.

I'm not one of those types that believes that every single criminal should come up for the death penalty, but in my opinion, there are some people who just don't deserve to be in this world and continue to threaten and harm others. Mind you I am selective with this. Try not to envision me as some axe-wielding Judge Roy Bean. I do sympathize with those that are clinically insane and they should be locked away and properly treated. But someone who rapes and murders/tortures young children shouldn't be victimized.


True, everyone has a reason for what they believe. I respect your beliefs even though I disagree. Its nice to actually hear somebody actually respect my views! :)

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Nejii
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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:03 pm

Saint Yosx wrote:
Nejii wrote:
Those are fair points.

Still, there is a thing called a conscience. One has to wonder how many top tier Nazi's deep down were conflicted by their actions but brushed these conflictions aside for a twisted agenda and personal gain. Mental illness is a huge impactor in the field of killers and genocide, but even so, I doubt even half of certifiable murderers are suffering from a true mental illness. Many people use the term "ill" as a simple cover for "there are bad and evil people in the world". Schizophrenia is a mental illness, being cruel is a lack of humanity and compassion.

I'm not one of those types that believes that every single criminal should come up for the death penalty, but in my opinion, there are some people who just don't deserve to be in this world and continue to threaten and harm others. Mind you I am selective with this. Try not to envision me as some axe-wielding Judge Roy Bean. I do sympathize with those that are clinically insane and they should be locked away and properly treated. But someone who rapes and murders/tortures young children shouldn't be victimized.


True, everyone has a reason for what they believe. I respect your beliefs even though I disagree. Its nice to actually hear somebody actually respect my views! :)


Your base sense of compassion is plausible. In truth a few people I regularly engage with on here could learn a few things from you about civil debating. :D

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Postby Esalia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:05 pm

I am completely against it for a fair few reasons, most that have already been said in this thread (e.g the potential to execute innocent people).

Plus, I actually find life imprisonment to be a harsher penalty than the death penalty. I see the death penalty as giving people who really don't deserve it an easy way out. So even for extreme crimes, I'd rather we lock the fucker up for the rest of their existence in a shitty prison than kill them.
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Postby Saint Yosx » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:07 pm

Nejii wrote:
Saint Yosx wrote:
True, everyone has a reason for what they believe. I respect your beliefs even though I disagree. Its nice to actually hear somebody actually respect my views! :)


Your base sense of compassion is plausible. In truth a few people I regularly engage with on here could learn a few things from you about civil debating. :D


I guess debating with my dad every day actually helped me for once lol... I try to understand why people think the way they do and I have been always fascinated by different views.

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Postby Nejii » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:10 pm

Esalia wrote:I am completely against it for a fair few reasons, most that have already been said in this thread (e.g the potential to execute innocent people).


This I concede is a valid issue. Of course I suppose that's why death row exists.

Of course I also believe that executions shouldn't be immediate and reserved for only the harshest of criminals. Drug dealer, no. Mass murderer with a body count of thirty, yes. Serial rapist, I'm conflicted.

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