PR for Beginners(A Dutch Election Thread)

[Shrillland]

Bas Zuiderveld (an opinion editor) suggests a new way out of the impasse:

let the parties negotiate with each other in parliament, and let Rutte, and Kaag, and Hoekstra, all commit to lead ther respective factions in the Tweede Kamer, for the next four years.

But everybody hates them now and they hate each other more and more. I don't see this working myself.

[Republic Of Ludwigsburg]

I'm an overseas Dutch citizen as I plan to move there in a few months, GroenLinks is my party.

[Y-ugh]

More damage for both cabinet and CDA.

Mona Keizer, CDA´s undersecretary for Economic Affairs, has been critical of the cabinet´s resitrictions (COVID-related) on the bars and restaurants before (December).

Now, on the day that another restriction goes into effect (the COVID-passport with QR codes), she has given a firebrand interview to the Telegraaf newspaper (populist and well-read right-wing publication), wherein she says that it´s no longer defensible to keep restricting young people, bars, restaurants, small cultural entrepreneurs, etc... Basically, she said: "Enough is enough; we need a different policy."

Well, that was seen as an open attack on Health Minister Hugo de Jonge, who happens to be from the same CDA.
Frantic conference of Rutte, De Jonge, Ollongren (D66), Schouten (CU), and Hoekstra follows, and the lady is dismissed the same day. Fired on the spot.

Keizer is from Volendam, a CDA stronghold that is strongly opposed to COVID restrictions. The village is deeply religious (Roman-Catholic) and obstinate in a way that only Dutch fishing communities can be (cf. Scheveningen, Ziekikzee, Urk). She knows that her voters want the QR codes axed yesterday. And as she is also an elected representative, she speaks out on their behalf.

Personally, I find Rutte rather hypocritical. He and his party claim all the time that cabinet memebrs can very well be elected representatives at the same time, yet as soon as a cabinet member speaks out (as a representative) against cabinet policy, she is fired.

This furthermore suggests that the CDA will break up further. Keizer was, just like Omtzigt, in the race for the party leadership in 2020. She endorsed Omtzigt for round 2, and was the first to criticise irregularities in the count of round 2. Seems like Hoekstra is keen to remove all competing visions for the future of the party, at the cost of the party itself.

If Keizer is also removed from the CDA faction, VVD-D66-CDA can count on only 71 out of 150 seats in parliament. If her voters leave with her, that would set the CDA up for a small party status at the next election. 3-4 seats at best. And what if she teams up with Omtzigt?

Link, although there must be dozens at this point:

https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/met-harde ... rouw.nl%2F

[Juristonia]

It pains me to say it, but I kinda agree with Rutte on this one.
You can't, as a member of the government, just go against the agreed upon government policies like that. Not that openly at least.

She's a part of the cabinet, and as a cabinet member, you can't just decide you're gonna go ahead and go against the cabinet without expecting there to be consequences for that.

[Frysdan]

It pains me to say it, but I kinda agree with Rutte on this one.
You can't, as a member of the government, just go against the agreed upon government policies like that. Not that openly at least.

She's a part of the cabinet, and as a cabinet member, you can't just decide you're gonna go ahead and go against the cabinet without expecting there to be consequences for that.

But an elected member of parliament is, by the constitution, "vrij van last en ruggenspraak" (free to speak their mind, without heed to outside considerations or deals). So if Rutte feels this strongly about it, he shouldn´t have spent a whole debate defending the VVD parliamentarians who have recently been appointed to a side job in his cabinet.

Also: there used to be a rule that this combination of Tweede Kamer and cabinet positions can last only four months. If that rule had been maintained, this whole situation would never have arisen. This is a problem of Rutte´s making.

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In other news, just as Remkes is ready to report that there is too little support for a minority coalition (who would have predicted that? /sarcasm), Sigrid Kaag is suggesting a six party cabinet: VVD D66 CDA CU PvdA GrL That way, there would be a clear coalition majority in parliament, and everybody would have their favorite playpals: Kaag would have backup from Ploumen and Klaver, while Hoekstra and Segers would have each other´s support.

Problem here: Rutte is already on record objecting to a five party coalition. He´d have to have a major case of his trademark amnesia to do a 180 and go along with this suggestion.

https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/als-het-a ... ~bd2b3744/

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

It pains me to say it, but I kinda agree with Rutte on this one.
You can't, as a member of the government, just go against the agreed upon government policies like that. Not that openly at least.

She's a part of the cabinet, and as a cabinet member, you can't just decide you're gonna go ahead and go against the cabinet without expecting there to be consequences for that.

But an elected member of parliament is, by the constitution, "vrij van last en ruggenspraak" (free to speak their mind, without heed to outside considerations or deals). So if Rutte feels this strongly about it, he shouldn´t have spent a whole debate defending the VVD parliamentarians who have recently been appointed to a side job in his cabinet.

Also: there used to be a rule that this combination of Tweede Kamer and cabinet positions can last only four months. If that rule had been maintained, this whole situation would never have arisen. This is a problem of Rutte´s making.

------------------------

In other news, just as Remkes is ready to report that there is too little support for a minority coalition (who would have predicted that? /sarcasm), Sigrid Kaag is suggesting a six party cabinet: VVD D66 CDA CU PvdA GrL That way, there would be a clear coalition majority in parliament, and everybody would have their favorite playpals: Kaag would have backup from Ploumen and Klaver, while Hoekstra and Segers would have each other´s support.

Problem here: Rutte is already on record objecting to a five party coalition. He´d have to have a major case of his trademark amnesia to do a 180 and go along with this suggestion.

https://www.trouw.nl/politiek/als-het-a ... ~bd2b3744/

As a parliamentarian she is free from outside influence. Ministers, however, serve at leisure of the Crown, and are in that position not free to speak their mind.

I agree that cabinet ministers should not be members of parliament, though, but Keyser was rightly booted from the cabinet.

[Deep Dark Dust Dimensions]

Well, that is debatable. Even if the REASON for her dismissal was correct, the method seems to have been questionable.

You see, a Minister-President can PROPOSE the hiring and the firing of a minister, but when hiring, the King needs to sign off on it. And when it comes to firing, the whole cabinet needs to sign off on it. And just collecting the vice-prime-ministers and the CDA party leader for a committee of five is not quite the same.

Rutte seems to be oblivious about it, but Dutch cabinets operate on the basis of collegiality: the Minister-President is not a prime minister. He is merely the primus inter pares. Rutte may have violated state law with this quick firing. If he had waited until the next Friday, the cabinet could have signed off on it, and there would be no trouble. But for some reason, Rutte didn´t want to wait six days, even when he is happy to keep the country waiting eight months before formal cabinet negotiations even start.

Omtzigt is reportedly already gearing up for questions about the legality of Keizer´s firing, so the next parliamentary debate will be interesting to watch...

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Well, that is debatable. Even if the REASON for her dismissal was correct, the method seems to have been questionable.

You see, a Minister-President can PROPOSE the hiring and the firing of a minister, but when hiring, the King needs to sign off on it. And when it comes to firing, the whole cabinet needs to sign off on it. And just collecting the vice-prime-ministers and the CDA party leader for a committee of five is not quite the same.

Rutte seems to be oblivious about it, but Dutch cabinets operate on the basis of collegiality: the Minister-President is not a prime minister. He is merely the primus inter pares. Rutte may have violated state law with this quick firing. If he had waited until the next Friday, the cabinet could have signed off on it, and there would be no trouble. But for some reason, Rutte didn´t want to wait six days, even when he is happy to keep the country waiting eight months before formal cabinet negotiations even start.

Omtzigt is reportedly already gearing up for questions about the legality of Keizer´s firing, so the next parliamentary debate will be interesting to watch...

You might want to read article 42 of the Constitution before trying to quote from the Constitution.

[Deep Dark Dust Dimensions]

Well, that is debatable. Even if the REASON for her dismissal was correct, the method seems to have been questionable.

You see, a Minister-President can PROPOSE the hiring and the firing of a minister, but when hiring, the King needs to sign off on it. And when it comes to firing, the whole cabinet needs to sign off on it. And just collecting the vice-prime-ministers and the CDA party leader for a committee of five is not quite the same.

Rutte seems to be oblivious about it, but Dutch cabinets operate on the basis of collegiality: the Minister-President is not a prime minister. He is merely the primus inter pares. Rutte may have violated state law with this quick firing. If he had waited until the next Friday, the cabinet could have signed off on it, and there would be no trouble. But for some reason, Rutte didn´t want to wait six days, even when he is happy to keep the country waiting eight months before formal cabinet negotiations even start.

Omtzigt is reportedly already gearing up for questions about the legality of Keizer´s firing, so the next parliamentary debate will be interesting to watch...

You might want to read article 42 of the Constitution before trying to quote from the Constitution.

That´s the article that declares the King inviolable, and the ministers (collectively) responsible. None of that obfuscates or negates the Dutch cabinets´ principle of collegiality. Rutte was out of line.

[HC Eredivisie]

You might want to read article 42 of the Constitution before trying to quote from the Constitution.

That´s the article that declares the King inviolable, and the ministers (collectively) responsible. None of that obfuscates or negates the Dutch cabinets´ principle of collegiality. Rutte was out of line.

Since I've only seen you talking about it I guess it's not really a problem.

[Shrillland]

After all these months, The Netherlands finally has a government...or it will when the Tweede Kamer approves it later today.

It will be VVD-D66-CDA-CU....just like before. Apologies for gravedigging, but it is relevant news.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

After all these months, The Netherlands finally has a government...or it will when the Tweede Kamer approves it later today.

It will be VVD-D66-CDA-CU....just like before. Apologies for gravedigging, but it is relevant news.

Not uet, we still need the new council of ministers. Which will probably last until the new year.

I like to propose myself as minister of Social Affairs and Labour.

[The Blaatschapen]

After all these months, The Netherlands finally has a government...or it will when the Tweede Kamer approves it later today.

It will be VVD-D66-CDA-CU....just like before. Apologies for gravedigging, but it is relevant news.

Not uet, we still need the new council of ministers. Which will probably last until the new year.

I like to propose myself as minister of Social Affairs and Labour.

For which party?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Not uet, we still need the new council of ministers. Which will probably last until the new year.

I like to propose myself as minister of Social Affairs and Labour.

For which party?

I would assume the role without party affilitation, but I am a BIJ1 member and an FNV employee, so take your pick. It’s going to be left wing for sure, though.

[The Blaatschapen]

For which party?

I would assume the role without party affilitation, but I am a BIJ1 member and an FNV employee, so take your pick. It’s going to be left wing for sure, though.

Closest from the coalition parties are D66 and CU.

Both still far away, so take your pick.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I would assume the role without party affilitation, but I am a BIJ1 member and an FNV employee, so take your pick. It’s going to be left wing for sure, though.

Closest from the coalition parties are D66 and CU.

Both still far away, so take your pick.

I ‘hope’ for a D66 minister, those are bad but at least not as bad as any of the others. Getting someone from VVD or getting Wopke Hoekstra would be unbearable.

[The Blaatschapen]

And the royal family breaks the corona regulations again.

Can we vote them out?

Please?

[Hurdergaryp]

And the royal family breaks the corona regulations again.

Can we vote them out?

Please?

That might theoretically be possible, but then we'll have to reintroduce stadholders.

[Juristonia]

I'm just gonna get drunk for the next 4 years.

[The Alma Mater]

And the royal family breaks the corona regulations again.

Can we vote them out?

Please?

*shrug*. The elected officials also ignore the rules. Still do not work from home, have an exemption to the "show a QR code" rule in bars and restaurants, do not properly distance, have wedding parties etc.

Worst. Examples. Ever.

[Thepeopl]

And the royal family breaks the corona regulations again.

Can we vote them out?

Please?

Ooooh, yes please!!
Let's vote them rulebreakers out.

Every "royalty' AND lying politicians.
No Rutte, No Kaag, No de Jonge, No Seegers. Drat still no functioning government.

[The Alma Mater]

:idea:

And the royal family breaks the corona regulations again.

Can we vote them out?

Please?

Ooooh, yes please!!
Let's vote them rulebreakers out.

Every "royalty' AND lying politicians.
No Rutte, No Kaag, No de Jonge, No Seegers. Drat still no functioning government.

Supreme leader Omtzigt ?
Hmm.

[The Lesser Wonda Islands]

:idea:
Ooooh, yes please!!
Let's vote them rulebreakers out.

Every "royalty' AND lying politicians.
No Rutte, No Kaag, No de Jonge, No Seegers. Drat still no functioning government.

Supreme leader Omtzigt ?
Hmm.

Now that would be a "functie elders" (different position) indeed!