2020 US General Election Thread XIII: Nocturne

[Kowani]

I mean not that I support Trump or anything but I can't abide by Biden. Joe Biden supports policies that are radical and un-American like socialized medicine and higher minimum wage laws, and will raise taxes well beyond what I think is acceptable in this country.

Not that I like Trump. But if he can prevent this kind of stuff...

A public option for the ACA and higher minimum wage aren't un-American, Sundiata. States are voting for minimum wage increases anyway. As for raising taxes, the quintessential American decades saw taxes considerably higher than what we have now. Unless, of course, you follow MMT, in which case taxes only need to be high to keep the rich from taking more than they need.

That is a reason for taxes under MMT but it is not the only one

[Shrillland]

A public option for the ACA and higher minimum wage aren't un-American, Sundiata. States are voting for minimum wage increases anyway. As for raising taxes, the quintessential American decades saw taxes considerably higher than what we have now. Unless, of course, you follow MMT, in which case taxes only need to be high to keep the rich from taking more than they need.

That is a reason for taxes under MMT but it is not the only one

Well, yes, I know you need taxation to keep inflation down too. Pity hardly anyone takes it seriously.

[Xanthal]

That is a reason for taxes under MMT but it is not the only one

Well, yes, I know you need taxation to keep inflation down too. Pity hardly anyone takes it seriously.

We really need to have a mature public discussion in this country about what our taxes pay for before we can have a serious debate about how much tax we ought to be paying. Between the right telling us that taxation is theft and the left selling the income inequality angle, we've lost sight of the fact that taxes are fundamentally money paid for services rendered. Too few people know or even seem to care where it goes these days. If they saw how it was benefitting them and how it was going to waste, we might actually be able to push for some pragmatic decision making rather than more posturing and demagoguery.

[Shrillland]

Well, yes, I know you need taxation to keep inflation down too. Pity hardly anyone takes it seriously.

We really need to have a mature public discussion in this country about what our taxes pay for before we can have a serious debate about how much tax we ought to be paying. Between the right telling us that taxation is theft and the left selling the income inequality angle, we've lost sight of the fact that taxes are fundamentally money paid for services rendered. Too few people know or even seem to care where it goes these days. If they saw how it was benefitting them and how it was going to waste, we might actually be able to push for some pragmatic decision making rather than more posturing and demagoguery.

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

We really need to have a mature public discussion in this country about what our taxes pay for before we can have a serious debate about how much tax we ought to be paying. Between the right telling us that taxation is theft and the left selling the income inequality angle, we've lost sight of the fact that taxes are fundamentally money paid for services rendered. Too few people know or even seem to care where it goes these days. If they saw how it was benefitting them and how it was going to waste, we might actually be able to push for some pragmatic decision making rather than more posturing and demagoguery.

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

So if government spending is 30% of GDP, inflation will be 30% annually?

[Shrillland]

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

So if government spending is 30% of GDP, inflation will be 30% annually?

That's where the theory gets into trouble, yes.

[Xanthal]

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

I don't want to go any further with this discussion given that this is supposed to be an election thread, but before I drop it could you explain what MMT is, or at least what it stands for so the rest of us can look it up?

[Shrillland]

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

I don't want to go any further with this discussion given that this is supposed to be an election thread, but before I drop it could you explain what MMT is, or at least what it stands for so the rest of us can look it up?

Modern Monetary Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

[Betoni]

So I finally learned why Trump's lawyers are an absolute clown car.

The original lawyers were threatened off the case with doxxing and encouragement to "make them famous" by.... the Lincoln Project.

I completely missed this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lincoln ... es-2020-11

The Lincoln Project, a political action committee founded by a group of Republicans against Trump, tweeted the work phone numbers, email addresses, and photos of Ronald Hicks and Carolyn McGee to its 2.7 million followers. The tweet has since been deleted, but Business Insider has seen an archived copy.

"Make them famous," the group added.

Hicks and McGee, who work at Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, are challenging the result in Pennsylvania on behalf of the Trump campaign and calling for thousands of votes to be invalidated. As of Wednesday morning, President-elect Joe Biden was ahead by about 47,800 votes in the state, according to Decision Desk HQ.

That was on November 11th. On november 13th, they withdrew from the case.

This is not ok behavior. Targeting lawyers who represent their clients to the best of their ability for representing the wrong clients, and tweeting to "make them famous" is not to make them famous in a good way. It's an incitement to harm or kill them. I would be surprised Twitter let them back on the platform after that, but it's fucking Twitter.

So, it looks like the reason we're watching this clown car is that Trump has no other choice. Not because lawyers won't take the case, but because the incitements to violence against them for doing so is scaring off lawyers who have families or care for their own well being. This is not ok.

And, because fuck it here we are, Washington Post published an opinion which basically says it's totally ok to doxx and threaten lawyers for taking unpopular cases.

No one is going to believe this is legitimate, when the legal system is facing death threats for looking into the result. Congratulations - we fucking broke democracy.

Fuck.

Let's get this straight, the legal firm that decided to withdraw from the case haven't indicated any relation to the tweet and their withdrawal. The cases Trump and his people have thus far brought forward can be characterised as amateurish and hopeless without resorting to hyperbole. The election has been characterised as one of the cleanest and fairest in history by multiple relevant and trustworthy organisations. Trump has been undermining democracy and claiming fraud in the elections in his tweets and speeches throughout his presidency, even before the elections. There are a few ways to explain all of the above. I wonder how you came to the conclusion that the most likely explanation for Trump being unable to win his cases is that the previous lawyers where doxxed and this is the point when democracy was broken.

[Kowani]

Well, MMT dispenses with all of that by saying that taxes aren't actually needed to pay the government. Basically, the idea is that since money comes from the government and as long as a currency is both fiat and sovereign, the government can just print the money it needs to give to its own agencies.

So if government spending is 30% of GDP, inflation will be 30% annually?

No. MMT does not say that at all.

[Gravlen]

So I finally learned why Trump's lawyers are an absolute clown car.

The original lawyers were threatened off the case with doxxing and encouragement to "make them famous" by.... the Lincoln Project.

I completely missed this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/lincoln ... es-2020-11



That was on November 11th. On november 13th, they withdrew from the case.

This is not ok behavior. Targeting lawyers who represent their clients to the best of their ability for representing the wrong clients, and tweeting to "make them famous" is not to make them famous in a good way. It's an incitement to harm or kill them. I would be surprised Twitter let them back on the platform after that, but it's fucking Twitter.

So, it looks like the reason we're watching this clown car is that Trump has no other choice. Not because lawyers won't take the case, but because the incitements to violence against them for doing so is scaring off lawyers who have families or care for their own well being. This is not ok.

And, because fuck it here we are, Washington Post published an opinion which basically says it's totally ok to doxx and threaten lawyers for taking unpopular cases.

No one is going to believe this is legitimate, when the legal system is facing death threats for looking into the result. Congratulations - we fucking broke democracy.

Fuck.

Let's get this straight, the legal firm that decided to withdraw from the case haven't indicated any relation to the tweet and their withdrawal. The cases Trump and his people have thus far brought forward can be characterised as amateurish and hopeless without resorting to hyperbole. The election has been characterised as one of the cleanest and fairest in history by multiple relevant and trustworthy organisations. Trump has been undermining democracy and claiming fraud in the elections in his tweets and speeches throughout his presidency, even before the elections. There are a few ways to explain all of the above. I wonder how you came to the conclusion that the most likely explanation for Trump being unable to win his cases is that the previous lawyers where doxxed and this is the point when democracy was broken.

This quote provides more information about what happened behind the scenes...

But Trump’s success rate in court would change considerably after Nov. 3. The arguments that began pouring in from Giuliani and others on Trump’s post-election legal team left federal judges befuddled. In one Pennsylvania case, some lawyers left the Trump team before Giuliani argued the case to a judge. Giuliani had met with the lawyers and wanted to make arguments they were uncomfortable making, campaign advisers said.

For example, the Trump campaign argued in federal court in Philadelphia two days after the election to stop the count because Republican observers had been barred. Under sharp questioning from Judge Paul S. Diamond, however, campaign lawyers conceded that Trump in fact had “a nonzero number of people in the room,” leaving Diamond audibly exasperated.

“I’m sorry, then what’s your problem?” Diamond asked.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-election-overturn/2020/11/28/34f45226-2f47-11eb-96c2-aac3f162215d_story.html

There were likely many factors going into their decision to withdraw, but when the head of the Trump campaign’s legal team wants to make arguments you can’t in good conscience make, you really only have one option.

It’s also stated in the NYT article that the Hill links to in Gallo’s post:

Some senior lawyers at Jones Day, one of the country’s largest law firms, are worried that it is advancing arguments that lack evidence and may be helping Mr. Trump and his allies undermine the integrity of American elections, according to interviews with nine partners and associates, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their jobs.

At another large firm, Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, based in Columbus, Ohio, lawyers have held internal meetings to voice similar concerns about their firm’s election-related work for Mr. Trump and the Republican Party, according to people at the firm. At least one lawyer quit in protest.

These concerns have been voiced repeatedly, and while any threats of violence is unacceptable, it seems more likely that the reasons the big firms pulled out is this in addition to the friction with Giuliani and Co.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

...

It’s also stated in the NYT article that the Hill links to in Gallo’s post:

Some senior lawyers at Jones Day, one of the country’s largest law firms, are worried that it is advancing arguments that lack evidence and may be helping Mr. Trump and his allies undermine the integrity of American elections, according to interviews with nine partners and associates, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their jobs.

At another large firm, Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, based in Columbus, Ohio, lawyers have held internal meetings to voice similar concerns about their firm’s election-related work for Mr. Trump and the Republican Party, according to people at the firm. At least one lawyer quit in protest.

"I took this job on the understanding I would have to wear a Mountie uniform and sing in a choir with other Mounties. After one rehearsal, I fear that such a performance would be detrimental to my future career and will recuse myself. Just between us, you guys should tell people you're a comedy act not let us figure that out on stage, it's quite disturbing."

[Xanthal]

It’s also stated in the NYT article that the Hill links to in Gallo’s post:

Some senior lawyers at Jones Day, one of the country’s largest law firms, are worried that it is advancing arguments that lack evidence and may be helping Mr. Trump and his allies undermine the integrity of American elections, according to interviews with nine partners and associates, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their jobs.

At another large firm, Porter Wright Morris & Arthur, based in Columbus, Ohio, lawyers have held internal meetings to voice similar concerns about their firm’s election-related work for Mr. Trump and the Republican Party, according to people at the firm. At least one lawyer quit in protest.

"I took this job on the understanding I would have to wear a Mountie uniform and sing in a choir with other Mounties. After one rehearsal, I fear that such a performance would be detrimental to my future career and will recuse myself. Just between us, you guys should tell people you're a comedy act not let us figure that out on stage, it's quite disturbing."

A related article I read a week or so back.

Granted, Galloism provided a questionable example, but the underlying point about the corrosiveness of doxxing and mob justice shouldn't be lost.

[The Archregimancy]

Why do you keep trying to claim AOC or Bernie are going to go all dictator? Like honestly man is it really so hard to understand that not every socialist is going to become a dictator?

Yes, because every socialist who has come to power in history has become a dictator, from Lenin to Morales

Oh for goodness sake.

With your other account you claim to be from Iceland.

Since Iceland became a fully independent republic in 1944, it has had five prime ministers from the Social Democratic Alliance or the Left-Green Movement.

Which of the following Social Democratic or Left-Green Icelandic prime ministers subsequently became dictators?

Stefán Jóhann Stefánsson
Guðmundur Jónsson
Benedikt Sigurðsson Gröndal
Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir
Katrín Jakobsdóttir

Presumably since 'every socialist who has come to power in history has become a dictator', you must believe Iceland has been a dictatorship on each occasion that the latter have been in power. You must also believe that Clement Attlee led the United Kingdom into a dictatorship, and that Chris Watson and Andrew Fisher actively undermined Australian democracy in order to found the great Australian Democratic Worker's Republic.

Frankly, I'm no longer convinced that your posts are entirely serious.

[Page]

I mean not that I support Trump or anything but I can't abide by Biden. Joe Biden supports policies that are radical and un-American like socialized medicine and higher minimum wage laws, and will raise taxes well beyond what I think is acceptable in this country.

Not that I like Trump. But if he can prevent this kind of stuff...

I swear if I ever get a genie lamp my first wish is that all the lies conservatives say about Democrats come true.

[The Giant Space Wyrm]

I'll admit that I would always vote Democrat if they were a coven of Necromancers while also being an all-powerful Illuminati with the power to subvert tens of millions of votes right before our eyes.

[Page]

I'll admit that I would always vote Democrat if they were a coven of Necromancers while also being an all-powerful Illuminati with the power to subvert tens of millions of votes right before our eyes.

If a serial killer Democrat was running against a Republican, I would vote third party. If there was no third party candidate I wouldn't vote. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to choose... well I guess I should learn Krav Maga to be prepared for such a situation.

[The Giant Space Wyrm]

I'll admit that I would always vote Democrat if they were a coven of Necromancers while also being an all-powerful Illuminati with the power to subvert tens of millions of votes right before our eyes.

If a serial killer Democrat was running against a Republican, I would vote third party. If there was no third party candidate I wouldn't vote. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to choose... well I guess I should learn Krav Maga to be prepared for such a situation.

Have you considered they might have foreseen this and have chosen to wear a pressure vest to cause an instant explosion killing you both as they need not fear death thanks to the Dark Lord Biden promising resurrection?

[Andsed]

Does anyone know whats going on with New York? According to the AP their the only state which is not at either 99 or 100% done counting and seem to just liked stopped.

[Shrillland]

Does anyone know whats going on with New York? According to the AP their the only state which is not at either 99 or 100% done counting and seem to just liked stopped.

They're notoriously slow at counting absentee and early votes. In the primaries, it took six weeks.

[Kexholm Karelia]

Does anyone know whats going on with New York? According to the AP their the only state which is not at either 99 or 100% done counting and seem to just liked stopped.

Everyone knows New York is going Biden. The House is the interesting part

[The New California Republic]

Why do you keep trying to claim AOC or Bernie are going to go all dictator? Like honestly man is it really so hard to understand that not every socialist is going to become a dictator?

Yes, because every socialist who has come to power in history has become a dictator, from Lenin to Morales

Yes, because everyone here in the UK remembers with abject horror the dictatorship of Clement Attlee.

Are you for real?

Socialism and authoritarianism tend to go hand in hand 99% of the time

And this little gem is patently false too.

[Valrifell]

San Marino voted in and then voted out a Communist government.

Just a fun fact that seemed relevant.

[Galloism]

And now the trump campaign lawyers are calling for violence against others - that they should be shot.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... krebs-shot

We've lost our damn minds.

[Valrifell]

And now the trump campaign lawyers are calling for violence against others - that they should be shot.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... krebs-shot

We've lost our damn minds.

I'm legitimately confused as to why it took you this long to realize that.