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Shall China exist?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Shall China exist?

China is a legit country with roughly its current borders and that PRC is the legit China.
64
23%
China is a legit country with roughly its current borders and that ROC is the legit China.
48
17%
China is a legit country. However Tibet, East Turkestan etc should be independent and China proper needs to be run by some form of ROC.
137
49%
China is not a legit country. Even China proper needs to be divided into numerous successor states.
31
11%
 
Total votes : 280

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Feline Goetland
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Posts: 387
Founded: Sep 09, 2020
Anarchy

Shall China exist?

Postby Feline Goetland » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:32 pm

As we all know, China exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of China in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in China tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover China historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since China is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Korea-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?
Last edited by Feline Goetland on Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Goetland is not China.

China as a state is inherently evil which needs to be rectified by oppressed nations controlled by it regaining our righteous independence just like the independence of Finland, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine from iterations of the Russian empire.

No more anti-Anglo, antisemitic and anti-Japanese nonsense, no more communist party, no more theft of wealth from Wu-speaking lands by Beijing, no more Boxer Rebellion-style xenophobia and it’s modern successors. America, Israel and Japan are inherently awesome.

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Glorious Hong Kong
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Posts: 370
Founded: Nov 01, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:25 am

I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

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Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12359
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:25 am

The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.
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Willtime
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Posts: 75
Founded: Mar 17, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Willtime » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:26 am

Feline Goetland wrote:As we all know, China exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of China in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in China tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover China historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since China is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Korea-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Of course anyone who says himself(or herself)is a innocent person,is a murderer.
His(or Her) work is so thorough that not enough evidence are left.
Last edited by Willtime on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Picairn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 913
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Picairn » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:29 am

Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.
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Feline Goetland
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Founded: Sep 09, 2020
Anarchy

Postby Feline Goetland » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:32 am

Page wrote:The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.


Do the people in what used to be Yugoslavia want to go back to a Third Yugoslavia? Do Slovenes and Croats want to pay taxes to Belgrade?

The main problem with having a huge China is that it is essentially impossible for outside forces to really enforce any kind of norm there. Hence ethnic cleansing and other atrocities are impossible to stop without a World War unlike atrocities in Uganda or Central African Republic for example. Same for Russia. The existence of the United States isn’t a problem though because there is federalism and that America itself is already sufficiently complex that different forces within it balances each other out.
Last edited by Feline Goetland on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
Goetland is not China.

China as a state is inherently evil which needs to be rectified by oppressed nations controlled by it regaining our righteous independence just like the independence of Finland, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine from iterations of the Russian empire.

No more anti-Anglo, antisemitic and anti-Japanese nonsense, no more communist party, no more theft of wealth from Wu-speaking lands by Beijing, no more Boxer Rebellion-style xenophobia and it’s modern successors. America, Israel and Japan are inherently awesome.

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Old Zealand Founder
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Mar 03, 2020
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Old Zealand Founder » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 am

Glorious Hong Kong wrote:I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

Is a self-sufficient Hong Kong possible? I mean, it certainly is - look at Singapore for example. But right now, what changes have to be made for a free Hong Kong?
JUCHE GANG

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New Carthagea
Envoy
 
Posts: 258
Founded: Jul 20, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Carthagea » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 am

A united China is preferable to that of a divided mess. The country should be way more devolved, though. Regions with unique cultural identities such as Tibet and East Turkestan must be given a fair degree of autonomy and the right to preserve their culture.
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Willtime
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Founded: Mar 17, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Willtime » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:34 am

Picairn wrote:Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.


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Picairn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 913
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Picairn » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am

New Carthagea wrote:A united China is preferable to that of a divided mess. The country should be way more devolved, though. Regions with unique cultural identities such as Tibet and East Turkestan must be given a fair degree of autonomy and the right to preserve their culture.

I concur. Maybe a United States of China? Lol. :)
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Heloin
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Posts: 14578
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:35 am

Do you know what shall means?
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Cantiron
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 10, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cantiron » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am

no it should not it suppressing the rights of people in hong kong as well as cover ups like Tiananmen square and censoring several things like facebook and youtube they need to give more rights to the people as well as giving the people free speech

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Smenovekhovtia
Secretary
 
Posts: 33
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Smenovekhovtia » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am

As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?
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New Carthagea
Envoy
 
Posts: 258
Founded: Jul 20, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Carthagea » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:37 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?


This.
Last edited by New Carthagea on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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It's A Hung Parliament! As elections results have been declared, no party has won a majority of seats in the Parliament in the elections. CC wins 86 seats, trailed behind by the Conservatives at 85. Talks for coalitions have begun.
Phoenicia: 5,000 New Carthaginian officials and soldiers to be stationed in Tunisia over the period of the next 15 days. Mode of governance shall be decided by Parliament after a governing coalition forms.

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USS Monitor
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19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:39 am

Yes, yes, mindless hatred of China is in vogue. That doesn't mean it's smart.
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Feline Goetland
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Founded: Sep 09, 2020
Anarchy

Postby Feline Goetland » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:40 am

Picairn wrote:Yeah, because Balkanization of China has not led to civil wars and internal strife before... Every time a civil war happens in China, millions are dead with infrastructure greatly destroyed. I prefer a united but pacifist China than multiple authoritarian countries turning the whole of China into a giant warzone.


Given how older iterations of China works this is inevitable at some point but in addition to all the atrocities above and a 50% depopulation numerous WMDs will likely be released either by CCP or by the warlords, leading to chaos and deaths everywhere.
Goetland is not China.

China as a state is inherently evil which needs to be rectified by oppressed nations controlled by it regaining our righteous independence just like the independence of Finland, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine from iterations of the Russian empire.

No more anti-Anglo, antisemitic and anti-Japanese nonsense, no more communist party, no more theft of wealth from Wu-speaking lands by Beijing, no more Boxer Rebellion-style xenophobia and it’s modern successors. America, Israel and Japan are inherently awesome.

User avatar
Smenovekhovtia
Secretary
 
Posts: 33
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Smenovekhovtia » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:40 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal
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Feline Goetland
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Posts: 387
Founded: Sep 09, 2020
Anarchy

Postby Feline Goetland » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:41 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:As we all know, The United States exists. However shall it really happen? Any iteration of the US in history has been a brutal entity that treats its own subjects as well as foreign peoples like shit. A typical regime change in America tends to be accompanied by a major depopulation. Moreover the United States historically conducted genocides that are so thorough that not enough survivors were left to condemn, let alone punish the perpetrators. Since The United States is so awful shall it be abolished and replaced by Florida-sized successor states that can ensure the existence of human rights and international norms?



Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

The West (as well as Japan, Israel and other normal countries) at least treats its own ethnic/racial group much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.
Last edited by Feline Goetland on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
Goetland is not China.

China as a state is inherently evil which needs to be rectified by oppressed nations controlled by it regaining our righteous independence just like the independence of Finland, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine from iterations of the Russian empire.

No more anti-Anglo, antisemitic and anti-Japanese nonsense, no more communist party, no more theft of wealth from Wu-speaking lands by Beijing, no more Boxer Rebellion-style xenophobia and it’s modern successors. America, Israel and Japan are inherently awesome.

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Smenovekhovtia
Secretary
 
Posts: 33
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Smenovekhovtia » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am

Feline Goetland wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:

Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

The West at least treats its own people much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.

*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*
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National Bolshevik Republic

None of the views expressed in character or within my future fact books are representative of my views. All in character forum posts will be marked with IC in red.

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Picairn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 913
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Picairn » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:43 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:Just trying to remind everyone that the west is just as brutal if not more brutal

Stop. That is deflection. Create a new thread where you can spread your hatred about the West if you like, but we are talking about China here.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Ayn Rand is a war criminal

Vivian James wrote:It is sophistry to try to redefine your opponent's arguments. It might feel good...

But so can jerking off in a subway.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.

Atheris wrote:Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.

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Feline Goetland
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 387
Founded: Sep 09, 2020
Anarchy

Postby Feline Goetland » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:44 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:
Feline Goetland wrote:The West at least treats its own people much better than China which is precisely why China needs to be abolished. The more Chinese you are the worse China treats you.

*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*


I already explained it. European countries are at least good towards Europeans of the same ethnicity. Ideally a state should be nice to everyone. If this can not be achieved at least a state should be nice towards its ruling ethnic group (and that everyone needs to get an ethnostate to ensure good treatment). China is even worse since it does not even treat its own supposed ruling ethnic group well, let alone minorities such as Uyghurs.
Last edited by Feline Goetland on Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Goetland is not China.

China as a state is inherently evil which needs to be rectified by oppressed nations controlled by it regaining our righteous independence just like the independence of Finland, Baltic States, Poland and Ukraine from iterations of the Russian empire.

No more anti-Anglo, antisemitic and anti-Japanese nonsense, no more communist party, no more theft of wealth from Wu-speaking lands by Beijing, no more Boxer Rebellion-style xenophobia and it’s modern successors. America, Israel and Japan are inherently awesome.

User avatar
Vivolkha
Diplomat
 
Posts: 577
Founded: Oct 15, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vivolkha » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:44 am

Page wrote:The size of a state is not relevant to how well that state upholds human rights. Why would China breaking up into a bunch of small successor states be any less oppressive? The people of the Balkans were much better off under a united Yugoslavia. After it fell apart is when the war and killing started. Look at former Soviet States like Belarus and Turkmenistan which are significantly more totalitarian now.

The Balkans degenerated into an unfortunate war, however now that that is sorted most if not all the Balkan countries have better human rights records than their communist predecessors. That doesn't mean in any way that the war had to happen or was worth it.

There is no way Belarus is as oppressive as the former USSR (save the Gorbachev era). In fact, I'd say of the post-Soviet states, only Turkmenistan and maybe Uzbekistan (keeping in mind the careful liberalization post-Karimov) actually compare.
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Willtime
Attaché
 
Posts: 75
Founded: Mar 17, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Willtime » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:45 am

Old Zealand Founder wrote:
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:I support China's right to exist as a nation-state, but I also support its Balkanization and the independence of many smaller countries such as Hong Kong, Macau, Tibet, East Turkestan, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan. I pray for the CCP's demise every single day. I support the creation of a smaller, freer, more democratic China of which Hong Kong is not a constituent part. Only then can I say I'm proud to be Chinese without lying.

Is a self-sufficient Hong Kong possible? I mean, it certainly is - look at Singapore for example. But right now, what changes have to be made for a free Hong Kong?


New water source,food source,and money source.
I know money source is hard to understand,I will try to explain it.
It means another way to be a important port.
In old time,HK is one of the few windows between China and other countries,nearly the only one.
And now,China is trying to build new windows,and HK needs to find new way to keep it important.
For now,some HKer try to keep it important in this way 'We are free,you cannot trust China!'
China is not so good to trust without reasons,of course.
But,can 'free countries' trust each other?

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Picairn
Diplomat
 
Posts: 913
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Picairn » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:45 am

Smenovekhovtia wrote:*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*

*insert 1000 years of Chinese colonization of Vietnam and numerous invasions and atrocities committed by its dynasties*
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Ayn Rand is a war criminal

Vivian James wrote:It is sophistry to try to redefine your opponent's arguments. It might feel good...

But so can jerking off in a subway.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.

Atheris wrote:Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.

User avatar
Smenovekhovtia
Secretary
 
Posts: 33
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Smenovekhovtia » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:46 am

Feline Goetland wrote:
Smenovekhovtia wrote:*Insert 300+ years of slavery and native american genocide*


I already explained it. European countries are at least good towards Europeans of the same ethnicity. Ideally a state should be nice to everyone. If this can not be achieved at least a state should be nice towards its ruling ethnic group (and that everyone needs to get an ethnostate to ensure good treatment). China is even worse.


Yeah, supporting ethnostates? Get the fuck outta here with the racist rhetoric
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National Bolshevik Republic

None of the views expressed in character or within my future fact books are representative of my views. All in character forum posts will be marked with IC in red.

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