A Chip is Coming Into Your Brain

[Salandriagado]

Musk's brain implants couldn't do any of the shit you describe, even if he wanted it to. Letting Musk put this thing in your brain might kill you, or injure you, or might just do nothing, but it definitely won't give him control of your thoughts.

The device could have some sort of wireless receptor which could be remotely controlled.

Which would do exactly nothing to allow mind control.

Too abusable. Only acceptable if airgapped and all software is open-source and a copy of it has been posted on various apolitical internet cracker communities for a few months before actually being used for them find any potential backdoors.

Uh, open source is just handing hackers everything they need to abuse it.

No. Open source software is, on average, significantly more secure than closed-source software.

I'm sure it does, but it can't control your thoughts. That's just not a thing that can be done.

If it can cure depression and autism it can control your thoughts.

No. Autism we don't know much about the causes of, but depression can be, and very often is, effectively treated by simple chemical means. That's wildly different to controlling your thoughts.

Probably by adjusting the amount of dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine.

And how does it do that? Why would it be marketed as a cure for depression when current medicine does all of that?

Because orally issued drugs are imprecise due to the nature of the brain-blood barrier and natural variability in brain chemistry, and rely on ongoing behavioural changes (in particular, the depressed person need to motivate themselves to actually take the damned pills every day). Doing things inside the brain can adjust for all of those, by directly monitoring the levels of various chemicals and adjusting appropriately.

Probably by adjusting the amount of dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine.

How would it do that? It's a chip, not a biochemical factory.

Your brain is already full of the production mechanisms for all of those. In principle, something like this could work by simply stimulating those cells to produce the desired chemicals at the desired rates.

Because Musk hasn't made it yet, and he wants smart people to do the work.

Ok, so what exactly is the mechanism then? Because you seemed quite sure just a moment ago that it cannot in any way have an effect on the users thought process.

I don't need to be able to tell you the exact details of the 5G spec to tell you that it isn't mind controlling you. This is much the same.

[Katganistan]

Hold up did you just call autism evil? Or am I just misreading this post?

Autism is a natural evil in the sense of making it more difficult to live a normal life. It's not a moral evil.

Neil Degrasse Tyson talks about autism and astrophysicists.

[Ghost Land]

Ok, so what exactly is the mechanism then? Because you seemed quite sure just a moment ago that it cannot in any way have an effect on the users thought process.

We haven't reached "streaming music into our brain" territory yet, which is still far fetched. Currently Neuralink's main promise, other than control of the production of dopamine et al, is data collection. Mental health, migraine, all of this can be collected real time and in great detail 24/7, instead of relying on anectodal stories from the patient. Things like depression can be thoroughly diagnosed with precision and treated in such a way that progress and improvement could be codified and monitored.

We are also already able for example to tap into the brain’s electrical pulses that control muscles, meaning that in the case of paralysis, the signal paths can be restored and thus restore movement to once immobile limbs. Non-medical benefits would include things like unlocking and opening doors with your mind or sending and receiving text messages as thoughts, of which the experimental tech also already exist. What's new is that this technology will finally enter market stage to the general population, being able to be mass-produced and implanted at a mass scale.

I don't want anybody else knowing all this information about my mental and emotional health. Nobody else has the right to know. If people are voluntarily signing up for this (in the event it pans out), fine. But you're not forcing this into me. I deserve some level of privacy and security in my life without some random corporation, government, etc. knowing how I'm feeling at any given moment. This technology, other than being just plain creepy, has SO much potential to be abused by governments, corporations, and perhaps even other civilians. (ANY computer can be hacked into. It may be extremely unlikely, and hackers aren't the people I'm most concerned about getting their money-grubbing filthy hands on my personal data, but they still exist.) Never mind that as mentioned by other users, many of the things this is promising to treat aren't as well understood as Elon Musk seems to be banking on - hence why I think and hope this whole thing is just a crazy, rich guy spouting his crazy-rich-guy ideas that are unlikely to come to fruition.

[Asherahan]

I am all for exchanging my limps and spine for mechanical stuff but I ain't shoving a chip in my brain.

[Betoni]

The device could have some sort of wireless receptor which could be remotely controlled.

Which would do exactly nothing to allow mind control.

Uh, open source is just handing hackers everything they need to abuse it.

No. Open source software is, on average, significantly more secure than closed-source software.

If it can cure depression and autism it can control your thoughts.

No. Autism we don't know much about the causes of, but depression can be, and very often is, effectively treated by simple chemical means. That's wildly different to controlling your thoughts.

And how does it do that? Why would it be marketed as a cure for depression when current medicine does all of that?

Because orally issued drugs are imprecise due to the nature of the brain-blood barrier and natural variability in brain chemistry, and rely on ongoing behavioural changes (in particular, the depressed person need to motivate themselves to actually take the damned pills every day). Doing things inside the brain can adjust for all of those, by directly monitoring the levels of various chemicals and adjusting appropriately.

How would it do that? It's a chip, not a biochemical factory.

Your brain is already full of the production mechanisms for all of those. In principle, something like this could work by simply stimulating those cells to produce the desired chemicals at the desired rates.

Ok, so what exactly is the mechanism then? Because you seemed quite sure just a moment ago that it cannot in any way have an effect on the users thought process.

I don't need to be able to tell you the exact details of the 5G spec to tell you that it isn't mind controlling you. This is much the same.

Yeah, this is all pretty theoretical to use a kind word, but stimulating neural circuits to steer a persons mood is not that far from controlling their thoughts. When there is some evidence that mood affects thoughts and vice versa.

[Scorvkent]

If I thought that banning this kind of product would stop it from existing, I'd be extremely tempted to support banning it. Humans can't really be trusted with total control over each other. Even psychologists can get dangerous amounts of control over people, and that relies only on an advanced (yet still very mundane and inexact) ability for people to understand each other. There is no great surplus of angels in this world who I would trust to organize our defenses on the principle that one strong and able mind can shield the many, and even if there were I would be reluctant, for I know that even a benevolent protector can ruin lives in error or frustration.

Unfortunately, I believe that the only way to stop abuses of this technological potential will be to promulgate it and research countermeasures. There are people in this world who would be really entirely thrilled to be among the only people with access to this technology. Moreover, they're exactly the people who would implant hardware to do the exact opposite of what this technology should be used for. Elon Musk supposedly wants to cure dementia? If a version of this technology implemented by the black market caused dementia, there would be a market that would consider that a feature. Imagine if the mind-machine interface technology was "impossibly difficult", "still decades away", and "far too difficult for criminals to use", so that "everyone knows" that nobody really has such an implant. A VIP wanting to dispose of someone they molested by causing their victim to "discredit themselves" would win both ways. The victim would be treated as insane if they thought there might be something implanted in their skull, and they'd actually go insane if they couldn't get it out. The way to prevent that is to make the necessary sensor technologies ubiquitous enough that abnormal brain behaviors can be detected lightside and illicit hardware removed.

Imagine this dystopia:

Researchers publicly known to be working on mind-machine interfaces get murdered after new legislation protects "the sanctity of mind" on threat of death, but meanwhile corrupt officials within the government arrange the seizure of their research and the protection of a few "whitehat" researchers. The "whitehat" researchers continue research into mind-machine interfaces because, of course, they believe in the sanctity of minds. They have to understand the technology in order to counter it. This structure benefits from secrecy and yet by its superficial benevolence it will still survive on exposure. Whether or not the researchers are true believers or just willing to proclaim true belief in exchange for funding and protection from the government, the result is that corrupt officials within the government end up in control of research that would otherwise not specifically have been controlled by corruption. What do corrupt officials want with mind-machine interfaces?

It'd work really well in a religious community. Actually, imagine this dystopia:

The new inquisition is astonishing. Islam's crusade against the degenerate Christians can finally prove that almost everyone they hate is an evil degenerate who deserves death for their true immoral spirits. Allah's true believers are finally safe forever from the oppression of having to respect others and the tyranny of being obligated to not kill people. The unrighteous can no longer hide their evils behind dark curtains and the tree of peace is being watered daily. "Useless" people are discarded at the faintest transgression. Meanwhile, the government now has perfect blackmail control of everyone who is blackmailable at all. Since Islam approves of death to vast swathes of humanity, it guarantees that most people are blackmailable! People would generally prefer to be blackmailed than dead! The inquisition can "prove" that people are pure, and what it gives to the true believers in certitude, it can also give to those it catches if they are "useful" to the inquisitors. Those who are caught being evil get the options of exposure or compliance. The compliant ones who loyally keep the inquisition's secret can indulge in their preferred degeneracies without need of dark curtains now that society believes them perfectly saintly. If they stop being compliant or "useful", the government can "prove" (quite accurately) that they're an evil degenerate subversive, allowing them to be thrown to the wolves without any opportunity to protest. Oh, and sometimes the devices just malfunction. There's medical care for that, but the science proceeds by the needs of the inquisition, and some people are remarkably unlucky. Entropy takes its toll. It's very sad, you know, that uptick in the rate of severe mental illnesses among people who do nothing useful for the state because they spend so very much of their time praying. Some of them even kill themselves; they must not have been very faithful after all to reject Allah's gift of life.

[Kowani]

Which would do exactly nothing to allow mind control.



No. Open source software is, on average, significantly more secure than closed-source software.



No. Autism we don't know much about the causes of, but depression can be, and very often is, effectively treated by simple chemical means. That's wildly different to controlling your thoughts.



Because orally issued drugs are imprecise due to the nature of the brain-blood barrier and natural variability in brain chemistry, and rely on ongoing behavioural changes (in particular, the depressed person need to motivate themselves to actually take the damned pills every day). Doing things inside the brain can adjust for all of those, by directly monitoring the levels of various chemicals and adjusting appropriately.



Your brain is already full of the production mechanisms for all of those. In principle, something like this could work by simply stimulating those cells to produce the desired chemicals at the desired rates.



I don't need to be able to tell you the exact details of the 5G spec to tell you that it isn't mind controlling you. This is much the same.

Yeah, this is all pretty theoretical to use a kind word, but stimulating neural circuits to steer a persons mood is not that far from controlling their thoughts. When there is some evidence that mood affects thoughts and vice versa.

It's light years away.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Well yes. That's what AI is. Something that thinks. Like a human.

No. That is not even remotely what AI is.

More like ... an expert system so complex it's functioning cannot be predicted ?

(I mean, I could look up a definition, it's just a tangent which interests me)

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Yeah, this is all pretty theoretical to use a kind word, but stimulating neural circuits to steer a persons mood is not that far from controlling their thoughts. When there is some evidence that mood affects thoughts and vice versa.

It's light years away.

Time is measured in years, not light years. Damn you Han Solo!

[Kowani]

It's light years away.

Time is measured in years, not light years. Damn you Han Solo!

...Light-years measure distance.
I'm not sure what your point is?

[Punished UMN]

Depends what ails me. I wouldn't want to use it for my depression or anything of that sort, because I would prefer for my situation to improve rather than to magically make sadness go away.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Time is measured in years, not light years. Damn you Han Solo!

...Light-years measure distance.
I'm not sure what your point is?

If you mean an vaguely long time in the future, "ages away" would do fine.

You were trying for a more sciencey version of "miles away" I guess. You should have gone for "parsecs" ... though still an accidental reference to time in there (seconds of arc and seconds of time are somewhat related: 3600 seconds in a degree, 3600 seconds in an hour).

Sigh, trivia. Just trying to make a post about something.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Depends what ails me. I wouldn't want to use it for my depression or anything of that sort, because I would prefer for my situation to improve rather than to magically make sadness go away.

I waiting a long time for that to happen. Finally I let them medicate me. And it didn't seem to work ... the old brain just shrugs off such poor substitutes for real drugs.

Nah. It does work a bit. Sertraline atm. Might try something else.

[Crysuko]

I should note that not all of us here are enamoured with transhumanism, it's easy to get stars in your eyes about technology and bioenhancement, but this must be counterbalanced by a solid ethical code, as well as weighing up can vs should.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I should note that not all of us here are enamoured with transhumanism, it's easy to get stars in your eyes about technology and bioenhancement, but this must be counterbalanced by a solid ethical code, as well as weighing up can vs should.

"Computers must be kept in their place, which is government laboratories, or they will take away our power to think"






Oh wait. That actually happened

[Crysuko]

I should note that not all of us here are enamoured with transhumanism, it's easy to get stars in your eyes about technology and bioenhancement, but this must be counterbalanced by a solid ethical code, as well as weighing up can vs should.

"Computers must be kept in their place, which is government laboratories, or they will take away our power to think"






Oh wait. That actually happened

get back to me the moment you're willing to take this issue seriously. if you're going to behave like a smug child I won't reply to you further

[Skyhooked]

Sounds nice to have no depressions, but given the nature of this chip... One man put it in his noggin, but won't be able to get it outta his head. Besdies, this lil' devil can send shock through the brain, or even possess some dude, so he suddenly gonna kill certain people against his own will, as soon as he hears "Would ya' kindly". Of course it's not the lil' chip itself. But the one, who programms it.

Tech is fine, but I ain't gonna trust this lil' thingy and folks after it with my mind. At least not until I make sure it won't hurt my freedom or privacy. Don't need no mind cops from Ingsoc gang.

Cuz with some of my thoughts and ideas, I may be tried for thoughtcrimes, and my ass gonna end up grilled on electric chair for sure.

Conclusion: This brain chip is cool and awesome! But it's twice as dangerous.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

"Computers must be kept in their place, which is government laboratories, or they will take away our power to think"






Oh wait. That actually happened

get back to me the moment you're willing to take this issue seriously. if you're going to behave like a smug child I won't reply to you further

I am making fun of your ethical qualms, with the very valid observation that people had the same fear of computers fifty years ago. And many of their dire predictions have actually come true ... but it's not stopping you using a computer is it?

You got personal, which tell me that you took the little quip in the second line personally. It wasn't meant so.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

I should note that not all of us here are enamoured with transhumanism, it's easy to get stars in your eyes about technology and bioenhancement, but this must be counterbalanced by a solid ethical code, as well as weighing up can vs should.

Definitely agreed. There are some boundaries I am not so keen on letting myself get past. This is one of them. There is probably going to be a lot of controversy and issues that would come with this announcement.

[Crysuko]

get back to me the moment you're willing to take this issue seriously. if you're going to behave like a smug child I won't reply to you further

I am making fun of your ethical qualms, with the very valid observation that people had the same fear of computers fifty years ago. And many of their dire predictions have actually come true ... but it's not stopping you using a computer is it?

You got personal, which tell me that you took the little quip in the second line personally. It wasn't meant so.

this is an entirely different issue and must be treated as such. being so blasé about this doesn't behoove us.

[Punished UMN]

I should note that not all of us here are enamoured with transhumanism, it's easy to get stars in your eyes about technology and bioenhancement, but this must be counterbalanced by a solid ethical code, as well as weighing up can vs should.

Solid take tbh.

[Bassoe]

But you're not forcing this into me.

They don't have to force you, they can get capitalism to do it for them without needing any kind of 'everyone must get the following cybernetic implants' laws.

Imagine tomorrow, when you need brain implants to compete in the labor market.
Just how secure would they be? Fuck, how safe would the surgery be? How can you trust they installed what you wanted?
Brain hacking and organs afflicted with planned obsolesce are actual realities our children will face within their lifetime.
And who will refuse? Can you compete with Bob down the street whose had an implant installed to increase his efficiency and concentration? Bob who can keep working, even under the most insane depressions, pains, and anger?

Soon

[Cordel One]

I'm surprised (but in a good way) that there's hardly any Elon Musk worship in here, even among the people who want the chip.

[Bassoe]

I'm surprised (but in a good way) that there's hardly any Elon Musk worship in here, even among the people who want the chip.

We know the Elongated Muskrat an egotistical weasel and there's nothing he's been doing, or more accurately been hiring people to do which couldn't have been done by anyone else with enough funding. The Falcon Heavy is fundamentally not new technology, just a new combination of preexisting ones. That's the issue. Any government space agency or billionaire willing to throw tremendous amounts of money at a hobby could have built something like it years ago. They didn't. That's the unique bit, the willingness to spend the money to actually build stuff. Yes, his trumpian ego and thin-skinness is almost certainly holding him back in the race to be the first man on mars, but he's currently the only serious competitor.

That said, I absolutely don't trust him with backdoor access to my central nervous system.

[Ebinland and Benistan]

broblem 1) dhe assumbtion dhad id would "gure" debression or addigtion or odher psyghiadrig disorders doesn'd sound lige id resds on sound psygologigal science
broblem 2) i'm nod gomfordable of having Ebin Musg inside mine or anyone else's brain begause eidher Musg or haggers gould dhen fry my brain ad will
broblem 3) abard from "guring" disabilidies or disorders i really don'd see dhe brain chib as really all dhad fungtional

solution 1) invesdigade and research id more
solution 2) brain chib musd gome widh bre-insdalled nordon andivirus
solution 3) you know whad we dhe gamers agtually need Musg, a hendai updade AKA more fungtionalidies dhan all dhis weagass shid

broblem sdill would remain dhad id's fuggin Ebin Musg in our brains bulling our sdrings while he's dribbing balls and i kinda don'd feel lige giving away my individual sovereigndy