What kind of children did you deal with?
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by SatoSere » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:30 pm
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:44 pm
by SatoSere » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:47 pm
The Emerald Legion wrote:Ghost Land wrote:That can also be accomplished by sending the problematic child out in the hallway or to the principal's office for the time being.
Can it now? How do you do that without making them leave if they don't want to?SatoSere wrote:What kind of children did you deal with?
My mother had me barely into adulthood and I had two younger sisters. I've also worked AROUND children most of my life. A teacher gently grabbing a child by the shoulders and steering them to where they should be isn't abuse. The idea it is is why our schools are so fucked up right now.
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:54 pm
SatoSere wrote:The Emerald Legion wrote:
Can it now? How do you do that without making them leave if they don't want to?
My mother had me barely into adulthood and I had two younger sisters. I've also worked AROUND children most of my life. A teacher gently grabbing a child by the shoulders and steering them to where they should be isn't abuse. The idea it is is why our schools are so fucked up right now.
Keyword: Gently. This is definitely not gentle, lol.
by SatoSere » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm
The Emerald Legion wrote:SatoSere wrote:Keyword: Gently. This is definitely not gentle, lol.
Oh of course. I don't think this particular incident was justified at all. But at the same time, it's just more fuel for the psychos ruining shit with their hyperbolic 'any physical contact is abuse and you can discipline just with words.' thing.
by Katganistan » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:10 pm
Dazchan wrote:Purpelia wrote:I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.
I’m a teacher. I’ve been teaching for 14 years. I was a volunteer teachers aide, student teacher and volunteer youth worker prior to that. I have never once, in the course of any of those roles, needed to use physical force to maintain control and discipline with the children I’ve been working with.
You’re literally calling for us to have a tool that we don’t want or need, claiming that it will help us do our job, despite evidence that it will have the opposite effect. I’m not the first teacher in this thread to tell you that. This is a good example of the major problem in education today - teachers are ignored in favour of armchair experts.
by Katganistan » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:13 pm
Ghost Land wrote:Purpelia wrote:If the problem maker is physically removed from the other children he can no longer bother them.
That can also be accomplished by sending the problematic child out in the hallway or to the principal's office for the time being.Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.
That is literally vigilante-justice-style bullying, and that's another reason AGAINST collective punishment. Do you want kids to be, as you even admit, "bullying" each other for any reason?
by The Free Joy State » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:29 pm
The Emerald Legion wrote:Ors Might wrote:I live in a world where the authority of my teachers was respected enough to when they threatened to call the office and our parents if we kept acting like shitheads, we knew they weren’t fucking around. What world do you live in where teachers are so incompetent and undisciplined that they can’t handle a special needs kid without grabbing them?
A poor area where kids don't give a shit what the office or their parents think?
Katganistan wrote:Ghost Land wrote:That can also be accomplished by sending the problematic child out in the hallway or to the principal's office for the time being.
That is literally vigilante-justice-style bullying, and that's another reason AGAINST collective punishment. Do you want kids to be, as you even admit, "bullying" each other for any reason?
It doesn't work that way.
Teacher tried it on my class when I was in middle school.
We tortured the teacher until she went out on leave.
by Purpelia » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:11 pm
Necroghastia wrote:Where is the evidence that the child in this incident was bothering other students? As has been pointed out, this was during lunch and the substitute was fussing over how he was sitting.
Those are all nice to have. But barring them simple obedience is a good enough substitute. Our societies are full of high functioning sociopaths, individuals who are literally physically incapable of empathy and yet function just fine because they have learned that societies rules are to be obeyed even if you don't and can't understand why.In my experience, it only caused ill will towards the one who decided that everyone should be punished for what one person did, because that's not fair.
And I can already see the argument that "LiFe'S nOt FaIr" coming, to which I say: So what? Doesn't mean we can't do our best to make things fair.Exactly. It either causes everyone to gang up on the "offender" and bully them strait or everyone to gang up on the one meeting out the punishment and side with the "offender". Either way you get a very undesirable outcome.Necroghastia wrote:And what you are advocating for is fear. Not authority derived from respect and good reasoning, but punishing people with no regard for circumstances or their own well-being. Plain and simple classic fear tactics. Disgusting.
Not fear, just practicality. There is no reason to permit one individual to ruin the education of others simply because you are too empathetic and frankly squeamish to let some kids fall through the cracks and have their lives ruined. Everyone deserves a chance at successes. Those that reject that chance should be thrown aside and left to rot.Salandriagado wrote:By raw force of personality and applying rules consistently, mostly. There are other methods, but that one works pretty well.
A teacher with a strong personality as well. Yea... I am not sure where you find these people. In my experience teachers are individuals that couldn't get a real job in their chosen field so they end up teaching in school.Salandriagado wrote:This is simply untrue. Kindly stop talking about things that you clearly know nothing about.
by Geneviev » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:30 pm
Purpelia wrote:Necroghastia wrote:Where is the evidence that the child in this incident was bothering other students? As has been pointed out, this was during lunch and the substitute was fussing over how he was sitting.
I went to school. If you think teachers have authority, or hell that teachers are for the most part not the weak and pointless underbelly of the professional world than you are wrong. I mean sure, you get the occasional snowflake that is there voluntarily. But for the most part he who does not know teaches is very much true. And teaching jobs are where dreams of professional success come to die.
by Page » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:48 am
by Ghost Land » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:49 am
Katganistan wrote:Ghost Land wrote:That can also be accomplished by sending the problematic child out in the hallway or to the principal's office for the time being.
That is literally vigilante-justice-style bullying, and that's another reason AGAINST collective punishment. Do you want kids to be, as you even admit, "bullying" each other for any reason?
It doesn't work that way.
Teacher tried it on my class when I was in middle school.
We tortured the teacher until she went out on leave.
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:12 am
Page wrote:The age of majority will always be arbitrary whether it's 21, 18, or younger and there will always be the inherent absurdity in that one's rights and responsibilities can change overnight when they're x years and 364 days old. We have to draw these arbitrary lines somewhere though, but we could at least be consistent.
It seems obvious to me that rights and responsibilities should increase proportionally, which is absolutely not the case in America. We never decide that a particular 8 year old is mature enough to drive as if they were an adult, or vote as if they were an adult, or drink, or work. Why then should a child be treated like an adult when it comes to crime? It's not proportional. It's not fair to have responsibilities without rights, and it doesn't make sense. We have abundant knowledge about developmental psychology, we know that the brain takes many years for things like empathy and impulse control to develop.
And how low do you want to go? Should we handcuff and arrest a 4 year old who hits someone? Should they stand trial? If you say yes, you're out of your mind, but 8 is not much better than 4.
by Purpelia » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:18 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Page wrote:The age of majority will always be arbitrary whether it's 21, 18, or younger and there will always be the inherent absurdity in that one's rights and responsibilities can change overnight when they're x years and 364 days old. We have to draw these arbitrary lines somewhere though, but we could at least be consistent.
It seems obvious to me that rights and responsibilities should increase proportionally, which is absolutely not the case in America. We never decide that a particular 8 year old is mature enough to drive as if they were an adult, or vote as if they were an adult, or drink, or work. Why then should a child be treated like an adult when it comes to crime? It's not proportional. It's not fair to have responsibilities without rights, and it doesn't make sense. We have abundant knowledge about developmental psychology, we know that the brain takes many years for things like empathy and impulse control to develop.
And how low do you want to go? Should we handcuff and arrest a 4 year old who hits someone? Should they stand trial? If you say yes, you're out of your mind, but 8 is not much better than 4.
Privileges and responsibilities do not come in pairs. Even if the draft applied to boys and girls equally, it would not be a "fair trade" for getting the vote, for instance. Even so, there is something to your "increasing proportionally" idea and I think it could work if more of the rights commonly denied to children were formalized, and granted one by one over a decade or so. Responsibilities too, though I know there will be a popular sentiment to tie each new right to a new responsibility in a way that usually won't make sense.
Parents having full control over the initiation of rights is hard to do away with. It's inescapably necessary early on (who else is going to grab the child before they run into traffic?) but it goes wrong in many ways. Some parents lose authority, some are too permissive too early, some are too controlling too late. Perhaps what is needed is a kind of arbitrator: parents wanting to grant a freedom early would have to apply, while teenagers wanting a freedom which hasn't been granted by the standard age, could apply for a "court order". And not the full legal process, the arbitrators would be child psychologists rather than lawyers.
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:25 am
by SatoSere » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:39 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Children getting equal rights to their developmental peers is "horrible" apparently.
Some people just hate children. It's mostly jealousy imo. They should stay the hell away from children and in particular, don't produce children of their own.
by The Free Joy State » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:53 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Page wrote:The age of majority will always be arbitrary whether it's 21, 18, or younger and there will always be the inherent absurdity in that one's rights and responsibilities can change overnight when they're x years and 364 days old. We have to draw these arbitrary lines somewhere though, but we could at least be consistent.
It seems obvious to me that rights and responsibilities should increase proportionally, which is absolutely not the case in America. We never decide that a particular 8 year old is mature enough to drive as if they were an adult, or vote as if they were an adult, or drink, or work. Why then should a child be treated like an adult when it comes to crime? It's not proportional. It's not fair to have responsibilities without rights, and it doesn't make sense. We have abundant knowledge about developmental psychology, we know that the brain takes many years for things like empathy and impulse control to develop.
And how low do you want to go? Should we handcuff and arrest a 4 year old who hits someone? Should they stand trial? If you say yes, you're out of your mind, but 8 is not much better than 4.
Privileges and responsibilities do not come in pairs. Even if the draft applied to boys and girls equally, it would not be a "fair trade" for getting the vote, for instance. Even so, there is something to your "increasing proportionally" idea and I think it could work if more of the rights commonly denied to children were formalized, and granted one by one over a decade or so. Responsibilities too, though I know there will be a popular sentiment to tie each new right to a new responsibility in a way that usually won't make sense.
Parents having full control over the initiation of rights is hard to do away with. It's inescapably necessary early on (who else is going to grab the child before they run into traffic?) but it goes wrong in many ways. Some parents lose authority, some are too permissive too early, some are too controlling too late. Perhaps what is needed is a kind of arbitrator: parents wanting to grant a freedom early would have to apply, while teenagers wanting a freedom which hasn't been granted by the standard age, could apply for a "court order". And not the full legal process, the arbitrators would be child psychologists rather than lawyers.
by Purpelia » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:54 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Children getting equal rights to their developmental peers is "horrible" apparently.
Some people just hate children. It's mostly jealousy imo. They should stay the hell away from children and in particular, don't produce children of their own.
by The Emerald Legion » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:33 am
The Free Joy State wrote:I've worked in disadvantaged areas. Children weren't grabbed. Physical punishment is illegal in schools in this country.
Discipline was managed just fine.
As others have said, any teacher who "needs" to hit or grab a child to make them listen is ineffectual of enforcing discipline and, IMO, such people shouldn't work with children.
by Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:53 am
by The Free Joy State » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:07 am
The Emerald Legion wrote:The Free Joy State wrote:I've worked in disadvantaged areas. Children weren't grabbed. Physical punishment is illegal in schools in this country.
Discipline was managed just fine.
As others have said, any teacher who "needs" to hit or grab a child to make them listen is ineffectual of enforcing discipline and, IMO, such people shouldn't work with children.
I never said Children were grabbed. No, instead they just get, at worst, shouted at. Which even that is frowned on.
And so you get children literally walking out of class to go do whatever they feel like. Or destroying entire classrooms. Or any number of other stupid things that could be avoided if you just physically stop them.
by Lanoraie II » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:25 am
The Free Joy State wrote:The Emerald Legion wrote:
I never said Children were grabbed. No, instead they just get, at worst, shouted at. Which even that is frowned on.
And so you get children literally walking out of class to go do whatever they feel like. Or destroying entire classrooms. Or any number of other stupid things that could be avoided if you just physically stop them.
Not in any classroom I've ever worked in.
All competent teachers and classroom workers of my experience can gain the respect of a class and they don't need to hit, or grab a child, and they rarely need to raise their voice.
Oddly enough, I did observe the behaviour you describe once -- only once -- back when I was at school; in the classroom of one of these incredibly strict teachers who shouted as a form of communication. Her classroom control was atrocious. I never saw it when I was working.
by Lanoraie II » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:26 am
Purpelia wrote:Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Children getting equal rights to their developmental peers is "horrible" apparently.
Some people just hate children. It's mostly jealousy imo. They should stay the hell away from children and in particular, don't produce children of their own.
Listen. Parenting is something that should be done by parents. Not by the state. Yes the state needs to step in to ensure children aren't maimed, raped, murdered or otherwise abused. But that's it. If anything the state should provide means to educate and enable parents to do their job instead of replacing them.
by Geneviev » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:39 am
The Emerald Legion wrote:The Free Joy State wrote:I've worked in disadvantaged areas. Children weren't grabbed. Physical punishment is illegal in schools in this country.
Discipline was managed just fine.
As others have said, any teacher who "needs" to hit or grab a child to make them listen is ineffectual of enforcing discipline and, IMO, such people shouldn't work with children.
I never said Children were grabbed. No, instead they just get, at worst, shouted at. Which even that is frowned on.
And so you get children literally walking out of class to go do whatever they feel like. Or destroying entire classrooms. Or any number of other stupid things that could be avoided if you just physically stop them.
by The Free Joy State » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:45 am
Lanoraie II wrote:The Free Joy State wrote:Not in any classroom I've ever worked in.
All competent teachers and classroom workers of my experience can gain the respect of a class and they don't need to hit, or grab a child, and they rarely need to raise their voice.
Oddly enough, I did observe the behaviour you describe once -- only once -- back when I was at school; in the classroom of one of these incredibly strict teachers who shouted as a form of communication. Her classroom control was atrocious. I never saw it when I was working.
Physical "discipline" (read as: abuse) is always a failure on the authority's part.
When I was growing up, the kids who acted out the most (and the ones who acted like traumatized, obedient drones) were the ones who were beaten on the regular. This is more than anecdotal however, this is historically the result one can expect from children in dysfunctional, abusive households; either acting like little hellspawn or desperately trying to avoid getting beaten so they act like angels. Rarely ever any middle ground. Some of the obedient angels are raised in loving households, but their mode of operation is noticeably different. They act appropriately because they were taught to do so, not out of fear of punishment or pain.
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