8 year old arrested for battery for punching a teacher

[-Astoria-]

Anybody who needs to rely on physical force to enforce discipline is fucking shit at enforcing discipline.

Please explain how you can enforce discipline with no physical force?

Teachers have a duty toward their students. All of them. If one student is making a problem for others the teacher can not and indeed must not have a duty to coddle the one at the expense of the rest.
That sort of thinking is what allows students to act out and bullies to thrive.

Teachers have a duty toward all of their students, and part of that duty is creating a classroom culture the students like being in. I don't consider administering discipline to be "coddling". If a student is being disruptive, and it's not something simple like "get your math book out" or "quit talking" that can be dealt with publicly with one sentence, the teacher should pull the offending student aside, into a back closet or the hallway, and give an explanation. For example, "Your continued talking while I'm trying to teach is disruptive both to me and to your classmates. Nobody else can focus when you're constantly blurting out and trying to converse with your neighbours. If you would like to say something related to the topic at hand, raise your hand and I'll call on you; otherwise, it can wait until later. If I continue hearing your voice when your mouth isn't supposed to be running, you'll have to stay behind with me in detention for 30 minutes after school." If little Joey continues running his mouth while class is supposed to be going on, he gets the detention, no questions asked.

Collective punishment is really almost never effective, especially considering that most young children think mostly about themselves due to their developmental status. If Brian, Timmy, and Joey are causing a ruckus in the back of the room, and I'm up at the front minding my own business and I too get punished and forced to sit there with my head down for what would have been my recess, darn right I'd be ticked. Brian, Timmy, and Joey can sit there and watch the teacher grade papers, but the other 23 of us deserve to be able to run around and play because we didn't do anything wrong. Being made to feel bad about the wrongdoings of OTHER PEOPLE is a good way to breed resentment.

[The Emerald Legion]

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

[North American Imperial State]

Anybody who needs to rely on physical force to enforce discipline is fucking shit at enforcing discipline.

Please explain how you can enforce discipline with no physical force?

It's fucking easy

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

No you do not physically detain them, fuck lets send all the kids to jail for misbehaving instead.

[The Emerald Legion]

Please explain how you can enforce discipline with no physical force?

It's fucking easy

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

No you do not physically detain them, fuck lets send all the kids to jail for misbehaving instead.

So, without physically detaining them, how do you keep the child in detention when they can just walk away?

[North American Imperial State]

It's fucking easy
No you do not physically detain them, fuck lets send all the kids to jail for misbehaving instead.

So, without physically detaining them, how do you keep the child in detention when they can just walk away?

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

[The Emerald Legion]

So, without physically detaining them, how do you keep the child in detention when they can just walk away?

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

[North American Imperial State]

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

What and just give up after 5 seconds because they won't listen, so a good smack on the arse will work instead.
There are many ways to discipline a kid without hitting them.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

I briefly mentioned BLM and the Left as a sidenote because they're the ones who keep going on about law enforcement, criminal justice reform, and defunding the police, which I broadly support. You're just going to ignore the main crux of my post to focus on that one little detail. Seriously Astoria, if you have a problem with me even bringing up the Left at all even as an aside, then kindly put me on ignore instead of complaining incessantly. This is getting annoying.

*cough*

Yes; because I'm the one who's been repeatedly complaining incessantly on things which have bugger all to do with the actual topic (ex. China, & random axe-grinds against <insert person here>).

Now, back to the topic:

ALL of my posts on ALL of the threads I've posted in are firmly ON-TOPIC. Your false insinuation that I'm veering off-topic and breaking site rules...is off-topic. Actually, how about I put YOU on ignore right now? All you've done is take snide potshots at me without bothering to address the substance of any of my posts, just like some of the other posters I've blocked. Don't talk to me.

[-Astoria-]

Don't talk to me.

I don't know about you, but I wasn't interested in continuing the conversation; yet here we are. And yet that is so rich.

[The Emerald Legion]

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

What and just give up after 5 seconds because they won't listen, so a good smack on the arse will work instead.
There are many ways to discipline a kid without hitting them.

Funny. I never said hitting them.

[Ors Might]

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

Weird, my teachers weren’t allowed to grab me and I don’t ever recall flat out refusing disciplinary action.

Granted, there are some kids that will flat out refuse to obey and that has to be addressed. However, when that happened, every school I attended engaged with the parents instead of laying their hands on students. It typically worked wonders, especially in the age group that the student in the OP is in.

[The Emerald Legion]

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

Weird, my teachers weren’t allowed to grab me and I don’t ever recall flat out refusing disciplinary action.

Granted, there are some kids that will flat out refuse to obey and that has to be addressed. However, when that happened, every school I attended engaged with the parents instead of laying their hands on students. It typically worked wonders, especially in the age group that the student in the OP is in.

Admittedly, Early age children who are raised right usually don't need force. Their minds are still pliable.

And while that may work sometimes, it often doesn't if there's home troubles.

[Ors Might]

Weird, my teachers weren’t allowed to grab me and I don’t ever recall flat out refusing disciplinary action.

Granted, there are some kids that will flat out refuse to obey and that has to be addressed. However, when that happened, every school I attended engaged with the parents instead of laying their hands on students. It typically worked wonders, especially in the age group that the student in the OP is in.

Admittedly, Early age children who are raised right usually don't need force. Their minds are still pliable.

And while that may work sometimes, it often doesn't if there's home troubles.

There are times where forcibly restraining or grabbing a student might be absolutely necessary, such as when the child is throwing a tantrum and you really don’t have any way of making sure they don’t hurt themselves or others. But if that isn’t the case and the child’s parents refuse to discipline the child, means such as suspension and, if need be, expulsion should be taken instead.

[Necroghastia]

Teachers have a duty toward their students. All of them. If one student is making a problem for others the teacher can not and indeed must not have a duty to coddle the one at the expense of the rest.
That sort of thinking is what allows students to act out and bullies to thrive.

Except this kid wasn't being disruptive - this happened because the sub didn't like the way he was sitting during lunch.

[Saiwania]

Collective punishment is really almost never effective, especially considering that most young children think mostly about themselves due to their developmental status.

Collective punishment works well within certain contexts, nearly all militaries to my knowledge; uses it as part of their basic training for all their recruits.

[Cordel One]

Even if handling children with the proverbial "kid gloves" is means to protect the vulnerable, in practice there's nothing to stop kids from taking it as an age-based loophole to commit all the crimes they want to.

I am personally entertained at the notion of an 8 year old taking advantage of our system to commit crimes with impunity and build a criminal enterprise. Too bad “el chapo” (which means “shorty”) was already taken, or this could be a great tv series.

I know this was on page 1 but it's worth pointing out this used to be a thing. Mafias and criminal organizations used to use kids as their pawns because of this

Admittedly, Early age children who are raised right usually don't need force. Their minds are still pliable.

And while that may work sometimes, it often doesn't if there's home troubles.

There are times where forcibly restraining or grabbing a student might be absolutely necessary, such as when the child is throwing a tantrum and you really don’t have any way of making sure they don’t hurt themselves or others. But if that isn’t the case and the child’s parents refuse to discipline the child, means such as suspension and, if need be, expulsion should be taken instead.

And you definitely shouldn't arrest them for it.

[The Emerald Legion]

Admittedly, Early age children who are raised right usually don't need force. Their minds are still pliable.

And while that may work sometimes, it often doesn't if there's home troubles.

There are times where forcibly restraining or grabbing a student might be absolutely necessary, such as when the child is throwing a tantrum and you really don’t have any way of making sure they don’t hurt themselves or others. But if that isn’t the case and the child’s parents refuse to discipline the child, means such as suspension and, if need be, expulsion should be taken instead.

Of course. But as you mentioned, physical force is the bedrock of such punishments.

"You will do this, or we will make you do this."

If a child just keeps coming to school after being expelled, you would have to physically remove them from the property.

[-Astoria-]

Collective punishment is really almost never effective, especially considering that most young children think mostly about themselves due to their developmental status.

Collective punishment works well within certain contexts, nearly all militaries to my knowledge; uses it as part of their basic training for all their recruits.

And so does the North Korean penal system, incidentally.

[Katganistan]

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

Nope. No matter how much you might wish to hear that kids are dragged out physically, it's not necessary.

[Cordel One]

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

Nope. No matter how much you might wish to hear that kids are dragged out physically, it's not necessary.

Kids generally don't stay angry for long and you can usually just convince them to without getting physical.

[Ors Might]

There are times where forcibly restraining or grabbing a student might be absolutely necessary, such as when the child is throwing a tantrum and you really don’t have any way of making sure they don’t hurt themselves or others. But if that isn’t the case and the child’s parents refuse to discipline the child, means such as suspension and, if need be, expulsion should be taken instead.

Of course. But as you mentioned, physical force is the bedrock of such punishments.

"You will do this, or we will make you do this."

If a child just keeps coming to school after being expelled, you would have to physically remove them from the property.

Completely correct. But what people are objecting to is the needless application of force, particularly in cases where it only makes the situation worse. Needless use of physical force, ironically in this case, demonstrates a lack of self-discipline and reflects badly upon the authority allowing it.

[Purpelia]

Of course. But as you mentioned, physical force is the bedrock of such punishments.

"You will do this, or we will make you do this."

If a child just keeps coming to school after being expelled, you would have to physically remove them from the property.

Completely correct. But what people are objecting to is the needless application of force, particularly in cases where it only makes the situation worse. Needless use of physical force, ironically in this case, demonstrates a lack of self-discipline and reflects badly upon the authority allowing it.

No they are not. People are quite literally saying that just grabbing the child is assault and battery and that therefore it had the "right" to strike back. And than they further go on to equate grabbing it to beating it.

[Ors Might]

Completely correct. But what people are objecting to is the needless application of force, particularly in cases where it only makes the situation worse. Needless use of physical force, ironically in this case, demonstrates a lack of self-discipline and reflects badly upon the authority allowing it.

No they are not. People are quite literally saying that just grabbing the child is assault and battery and that therefore it had the "right" to strike back. And than they further go on to equate grabbing it to beating it.

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

[State of Turelisa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWwp3woRe0

So basically a child who was uncooperative was asked to go to the principal's office, punched the teacher, and then was arrested for it. Cenk and Ana object to the latter on the ground that he's just a kid.

Even if handling children with the proverbial "kid gloves" is means to protect the vulnerable, in practice there's nothing to stop kids from taking it as an age-based loophole to commit all the crimes they want to. The story says they should've called the kids' parents; but what if the kids' parents sided with the kids? What could be done then?

If we don't teach kids that there are consequences for their actions, what's stopping that violent behaviour pattern from being rewarded well enough to last into their adult years? The story mentions that the US is too over-militarized, which is true, but why should kids be granted a special exemption to this? Doesn't that teach kids that in any altercation between a child and an adult, one side is above the law and the other will have a criminal record that will ruin their whole life if they don't just stand there and take it, rewarding said violent behaviour and therefore encouraging more where that came from?

I'm not even sure if this particular arrest was justified or not, but I'm just not sure what if anything the alternative is, and I certainly don't think the alternative is to send a message to every kid out there that they're immune from being arrested for their actions. For the most part, the people who advocate this "I was a kid then" loophole are the same people extend it to teenagers; who historically were considered adults; which frankly makes me doubt their judgment.

I don't see why they felt there was a need to handcuff the child because he wasn't being violent at the point when the police had arrived. Handcuffs might just be justified to restrain a child who couldn't be chastened.
Of course, if children were subject to a traditional form of punishment, educators surely wouldn't have to consider law enforcement as recourse to deal with their unruly pupils.

...no one's giving a free pass for the kid in question.

I am just sick and tired of the argument that people with mental issues need to be coddled by the law. I am also against the concept of an insanity defense. The punishment should match the consequences of an action and things like motivation, state of mind or mental health should only be relevant if they magically undo the action or lessen it. A punch is a punch is a punch. Who throws it and why is irrelevant. Only the force with which it is thrown is.

Amen. There's a definition to be made between righteous force and assault.

Boy needs a good paddling.

A pragmatic attitude toward crime, punishment and educational discipline always prevails in The Southern States, and that's due to a culture in which traditional Christianity predominates. A Christianity in which its adherents both fear and respect Him.

[Purpelia]

No they are not. People are quite literally saying that just grabbing the child is assault and battery and that therefore it had the "right" to strike back. And than they further go on to equate grabbing it to beating it.

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.