What is a good Christian?

[Luminesa]

Ah. Well I guess I got lied to then.

I guess it's possible she belongs to some offshoot that doesn't do it anymore?

I haven't checked JWs, but I know there's a lot of splintering that happens in Protestantism generally, and American Protestantism in particular.

That’s true, I actually don’t know if JW’s have splinters.

[South Odreria 2]

I suspect that you are intentionally misunderstanding me. Furthermore, are you discussing Christian doctrine or arguing against Christianity? Only the first is on topic in this thread.

Genuinely discussing Christian doctrine, though that could be construed as criticism I suppose.

Ok then. First of all, "Heaven" is essentially the presence of God. It is a Latter Day Saint belief that at the last day the wicked will choose not to enter God's presence because for a truly wicked person, being in his presence would be more awful than being away from him. I don't want to go any further because I'm at the limit of my understanding of doctrine on this subject. If you're interested I can telegram you later, as I really should understand judgement day stuff better anyway.

[Katganistan]

You are being obnxious. Stop telling me what I am, since this is the third time you've done so.

No, you are obnoxious. People here seem to believe pissing people off is the cardinal sin, so why don’t you play pretend Catholic by yourself, out of my sight.

You don't get to tell me or anyone else to leave the thread. You also perhaps should review the rules of this site, since you seem very unfamiliar with them.

[Jedi Council]

Yes, sorry, I did mis-attribute that as I just realized.

All good, I think I’m getting a little too sleepy myself.

To aid in I guess answering your question to Odreria, this is a matter of contemplating. We all have our definitions of love toward other people, but we have to question if our love for them is superficial or genuine. Sometimes those people can tell when they feel another’s love is superficial or true. The difference is we often decide these things on arbitrary grounds. God is not arbitrary, as He is Love itself. He cannot deny Himself, or somehow not know Himself.

That being said, if you truly are afraid of feeling that God would not see that your love is enough, know that God would look down and would say that you are His child and His grace is enough. He would know you are afraid, and would seek to aid you in every way He can. I know this from my own experiences of God.

Again while afraid is not the word I would use as I do not believe he exists, I suppose the primary thing I was driving at was the question over whether people who do not subscribe to the proper teachings of God could enter Heaven

For example, assuming say that the Catholics have the right of it, would only then the Catholics be allowed to enter Heaven? Or would those Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, et cetera, who lived morally decent and ethical lives also be allowed to enter.

In short, is heaven inclusive, for all who are morally decent, or exclusive, meaning for only those that follow a particular Church law? As someone who is both an atheist (strike one) and Gay (strike two) it is an interesting question, because, it would appear, that being entirely myself, which I would assume a God would want me to do, precludes by adherence to a religious faith.

[Albrenia]

Yeah, but here's the thing:
That's never the version people bring up when they bring up the wager. You know the one they bring up.

But then the moment you criticize it, some other Christian comes in to tell you that you've got it all wrong. And actually everything is so much deeper and more theological then you realized. And therefore you are just another silly and ignorant atheist. Criticizing what they don't understand.

And they don't bother to correct the first guy.

That’s the version I remember from reading various texts, so I guess I’m not sure what the other one is.

In general conversation, us atheists are often given the 'just act like God exists, you've got nothing to lose!' version. Which, if God's ability to see through such bullshit is true, would leave a bunch of people just wasting their time and hope of salvation by instead adopting a 'pretend' faith.

[Jedi Council]

That’s the version I remember from reading various texts, so I guess I’m not sure what the other one is.

In general conversation, us atheists are often given the 'just act like God exists, you've got nothing to lose!' version. Which, if God's ability to see through such bullshit is true, would leave a bunch of people just wasting their time and hope of salvation by instead adopting a 'pretend' faith.

And even taking the Wager at face value, using its own logic, the likelihood of choosing the right God/Gods is slim to none just because of the sheer number of them.

[Andechs-Sisebut]

Which is not mine, so how does that apply to me? It doesn’t. Lying is condemned as a sin.


Thou shalt not murder, is the commandment. A legal authority, which is given authority to dispense justice on the wicked and evil, has every right to use capital punishment. No one said anything about vigilantism. And a just act is not murder.

You mean the same ‘Lawgiver and Judge’ that said, ‘Thou shalt not suffer the witch to live.’? So, as St. Thomas Aquinas points out, lawful authorities are given license to dispense justice. This is not talking about magistrates punishing the wicked nor Christians using critical discernment to determine what is profane, and thus avoiding sin. ‘...who are you to judge your neighbour?’ is about Christians using detraction and calumny to malign each other (James 4:11) and slander, an illusion to Leviticus 19:16, ‘Thou shalt not be a detractor nor a whisperer among the people. Thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour. I am the Lord.’

This is why we have the Church, which you reject, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

God did not say, "Love thy neighbour, as long as they as just like you".

Just a note.

God said, ‘Love thy neighbour, as thy love thyself.’ To which we have recourse to St. Augustine,

Aug., de Doctr. Christ., i, 30; see Rom 13:10: It is clear that every man is to be regarded as a neighbour, because evil is to be done to no man. Further, if every one to whom we are bound to shew service of mercy, or who is bound to shew it to us, be rightly called our neighbour, it is manifest that in this precept are comprehended the holy Angels who perform for us those services of which we may read in Scripture.
Whence also our Lord Himself would be called our neighbour; for it was Himself whom He represents as the good Samaritan, who gave succour to the man who was left half-dead by the way.
Aug., de Trin., viii, 6: He that loves men ought to love them either because they are righteous, or that they may be righteous; and so also ought he to love himself either for that he is, or that he may be righteous. And thus without peril he may love his neighbour as himself.
Aug., de Doctr. Christ., i, 22: But if even yourself you ought not to love for your own sake, but because of Him in whom is the rightful end of your love, let not another man be displeased that you love even him for God’s sake. Whoso then rightly loves his neighbour, ought to endeavour with him that he also with his whole heart love God.

[South Odreria 2]

All good, I think I’m getting a little too sleepy myself.

To aid in I guess answering your question to Odreria, this is a matter of contemplating. We all have our definitions of love toward other people, but we have to question if our love for them is superficial or genuine. Sometimes those people can tell when they feel another’s love is superficial or true. The difference is we often decide these things on arbitrary grounds. God is not arbitrary, as He is Love itself. He cannot deny Himself, or somehow not know Himself.

That being said, if you truly are afraid of feeling that God would not see that your love is enough, know that God would look down and would say that you are His child and His grace is enough. He would know you are afraid, and would seek to aid you in every way He can. I know this from my own experiences of God.

Again while afraid is not the word I would use as I do not believe he exists, I suppose the primary thing I was driving at was the question over whether people who do not subscribe to the proper teachings of God could enter Heaven

For example, assuming say that the Catholics have the right of it, would only then the Catholics be allowed to enter Heaven? Or would those Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, et cetera, who lived morally decent and ethical lives also be allowed to enter.

In short, is heaven inclusive, for all who are morally decent, or exclusive, meaning for only those that follow a particular Church law? As someone who is both an atheist (strike one) and Gay (strike two) it is an interesting question, because, it would appear, that being entirely myself, which I would assume a God would want me to do, precludes by adherence to a religious faith.

There are a lot of really good questions wrapped up in this and I don't think there's any definitive answer I can give you. It would help to note that people will have the opportunity to learn the fullness of the gospel and become more worthy to enter God's presence after they die and before judgement day. The relevant location would be LDS spirit prison, or Catholic purgatory.

[Andechs-Sisebut]

No, you are obnoxious. People here seem to believe pissing people off is the cardinal sin, so why don’t you play pretend Catholic by yourself, out of my sight.

You don't get to tell me or anyone else to leave the thread. You also perhaps should review the rules of this site, since you seem very unfamiliar with them.

You’re a Moderator but have 0 self-awareness. Perhaps you’d like to review what you’ve said to me, then, if the rules so concern you; because the most I’ve said is that you aren’t a Catholic, you’ve gone quite a bit farther.

[Jedi Council]

Again while afraid is not the word I would use as I do not believe he exists, I suppose the primary thing I was driving at was the question over whether people who do not subscribe to the proper teachings of God could enter Heaven

For example, assuming say that the Catholics have the right of it, would only then the Catholics be allowed to enter Heaven? Or would those Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, et cetera, who lived morally decent and ethical lives also be allowed to enter.

In short, is heaven inclusive, for all who are morally decent, or exclusive, meaning for only those that follow a particular Church law? As someone who is both an atheist (strike one) and Gay (strike two) it is an interesting question, because, it would appear, that being entirely myself, which I would assume a God would want me to do, precludes by adherence to a religious faith.

There are a lot of really good questions wrapped up in this and I don't think there's any definitive answer I can give you. It would help to note that people will have the opportunity to learn the fullness of the gospel and become more worthy to enter God's presence after they die and before judgement day. The relevant location would be spirit prison (LDS) or purgatory (catholic).

Ah, I never considered purgatory.

An interesting concept.

[Godular]

You don't get to tell me or anyone else to leave the thread. You also perhaps should review the rules of this site, since you seem very unfamiliar with them.

You’re a Moderator but have 0 self-awareness. Perhaps you’d like to review what you’ve said to me, then, if the rules so concern you; because the most I’ve said is that you aren’t a Catholic, you’ve quite a bit farther.

Ye Gods, just Foe each other already.

[South Odreria 2]

deleted

[Katganistan]

was
Even the pope had stated in the face of the Zika virus that preventing pregnancy was not evil and that African nuns were allowed to distribute contraceptives in the case of rape.

I don't suppose you can actually source that?

Yup. Contraception only, but it is different from what's been suggested before.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ika-crisis
https://www.npr.org/2016/02/20/46746840 ... rus-threat
https://cruxnow.com/church/2016/02/fran ... ika-virus/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/18/health/z ... index.html
https://www.catholicculture.org/news/he ... ryid=27543

[Albrenia]

You’re a Moderator but have 0 self-awareness. Perhaps you’d like to review what you’ve said to me, then, if the rules so concern you; because the most I’ve said is that you aren’t a Catholic, you’ve quite a bit farther.

Ye Gods, just Foe each other already.

I'm not sure if Mods can be Foe'd or Foe someone, to be fair.

[Katganistan]

I don't suppose you can actually source that?

Probably one of the hundred or so articles that misquote or misappropriate what the Holy Father said.

Stop bearing false witness; it's a sin.

[Godular]

Ye Gods, just Foe each other already.

I'm not sure if Mods can be Foe'd or Foe someone, to be fair.

Actually, that’s a good point.

Allow me to rephrase: ‘Stop fucking talking to at each other!’

[Islands of Washington]

I'm not sure if Mods can be Foe'd or Foe someone, to be fair.

Actually, that’s a good point.

Allow me to rephrase: ‘Stop fucking talking to each other!’

i dont know, there is some entertainment value watching a new nation argue semantics with a moderator who has been around awhile

[Katganistan]

The guy who opened up his rather large congregation during this pandemic rather then holding services online should also probably have been stopped.

If only there was one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church which could control these things...

Which has, in NY, closed all Catholic churches and urged congregants to view masses on TV or online instead.

[Luminesa]

All good, I think I’m getting a little too sleepy myself.

To aid in I guess answering your question to Odreria, this is a matter of contemplating. We all have our definitions of love toward other people, but we have to question if our love for them is superficial or genuine. Sometimes those people can tell when they feel another’s love is superficial or true. The difference is we often decide these things on arbitrary grounds. God is not arbitrary, as He is Love itself. He cannot deny Himself, or somehow not know Himself.

That being said, if you truly are afraid of feeling that God would not see that your love is enough, know that God would look down and would say that you are His child and His grace is enough. He would know you are afraid, and would seek to aid you in every way He can. I know this from my own experiences of God.

Again while afraid is not the word I would use as I do not believe he exists, I suppose the primary thing I was driving at was the question over whether people who do not subscribe to the proper teachings of God could enter Heaven

For example, assuming say that the Catholics have the right of it, would only then the Catholics be allowed to enter Heaven? Or would those Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, et cetera, who lived morally decent and ethical lives also be allowed to enter.

In short, is heaven inclusive, for all who are morally decent, or exclusive, meaning for only those that follow a particular Church law? As someone who is both an atheist (strike one) and Gay (strike two) it is an interesting question, because, it would appear, that being entirely myself, which I would assume a God would want me to do, precludes by adherence to a religious faith.

Well the Church’s standing on other faiths is that they all contain a little of the truth. However, the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith. Can people of other faiths get to Heaven? Absolutely, though why is a bit multi-faceted.

Ultimately, Heaven is a place in which people love and worship God forever. Catholics and Christians are expected to know this fact, and should be striving to live their lives according to the Gospel. However, if a person dies not knowing God exactly as the Catholic Church, or has the Christian Faith in general, believes Him to be, but they have still lived a loving, just life, this is called “baptism of the spirit”, to paraphrase the Catechism. In short, even if they do not know God, they are moving toward God by their virtues and their love of neighbor.

Can an atheist go to Heaven? I suppose it would depend. I cannot say what your experience of God has been, and where your spiritual life has been. If you do not believe, I believe you would know when you died, and God would reveal Himself in His splendor. Can a homosexual person go to Heaven? Absolutely, if they live a good and just life like anyone else is expected to, and if they are a Christian they must live by upholding the Gospel. God certainly does not hate you, or see you as lesser, for being gay and an atheist. But He does wish for you to love Him. I wish I could explain better how He wants you to love Him, but I think I need to sleep.

Please TG me if you’d have other questions that I could answer when I’m more awake.

[Jedi Council]

Again while afraid is not the word I would use as I do not believe he exists, I suppose the primary thing I was driving at was the question over whether people who do not subscribe to the proper teachings of God could enter Heaven

For example, assuming say that the Catholics have the right of it, would only then the Catholics be allowed to enter Heaven? Or would those Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, et cetera, who lived morally decent and ethical lives also be allowed to enter.

In short, is heaven inclusive, for all who are morally decent, or exclusive, meaning for only those that follow a particular Church law? As someone who is both an atheist (strike one) and Gay (strike two) it is an interesting question, because, it would appear, that being entirely myself, which I would assume a God would want me to do, precludes by adherence to a religious faith.

Well the Church’s standing on other faiths is that they all contain a little of the truth. However, the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith. Can people of other faiths get to Heaven? Absolutely, though why is a bit multi-faceted.

Ultimately, Heaven is a place in which people love and worship God forever. Catholics and Christians are expected to know this fact, and should be striving to live their lives according to the Gospel. However, if a person dies not knowing God exactly as the Catholic Church, or has the Christian Faith in general, believes Him to be, but they have still lived a loving, just life, this is called “baptism of the spirit”, to paraphrase the Catechism. In short, even if they do not know God, they are moving toward God by their virtues and their love of neighbor.

Can an atheist go to Heaven? I suppose it would depend. I cannot say what your experience of God has been, and where your spiritual life has been. If you do not believe, I believe you would know when you died, and God would reveal Himself in His splendor. Can a homosexual person go to Heaven? Absolutely, if they live a good and just life like anyone else is expected to, and if they are a Christian they must live by upholding the Gospel. God certainly does not hate you, or see you as lesser, for being gay and an atheist. But He does wish for you to love Him. I wish I could explain better how He wants you to love Him, but I think I need to sleep.

No that explanation will suffice, thank you.

I personally do not find it convincing, but it is enlightening all the same.

EDIT: As an aside, what a relatively civil end to a decent conversation about religion of all things, in NS of all places.
That's a miracle I can get behind.

[Godular]

Actually, that’s a good point.

Allow me to rephrase: ‘Stop fucking talking to each other!’

i dont know, there is some entertainment value watching a new nation argue semantics with a moderator who has been around awhile

A train wreck might be difficult to avert one’s gaze from, but I for one would like to limit the casualties.

[Jedi Council]

Actually, that’s a good point.

Allow me to rephrase: ‘Stop fucking talking to each other!’

i dont know, there is some entertainment value watching a new nation argue semantics with a moderator who has been around awhile

90% of religious debates consist of entirely semantics.

[Katganistan]

^^The Catholic Church is against capital punishment, so not sure how you can advocate for it while condemning others for rejecting the church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn capital punishment. If your referring to Pope Francis’ addition to the catechism, that’s his prudential decision. It is inadmissible to use the death penalty now that developed nations are focused on reforming criminals and have the facilities to do so. The Pope cannot say that capital punishment is morally wrong and evil.

He absolutely can, that's literally his function.

[Godular]

Well the Church’s standing on other faiths is that they all contain a little of the truth. However, the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith. Can people of other faiths get to Heaven? Absolutely, though why is a bit multi-faceted.

Ultimately, Heaven is a place in which people love and worship God forever. Catholics and Christians are expected to know this fact, and should be striving to live their lives according to the Gospel. However, if a person dies not knowing God exactly as the Catholic Church, or has the Christian Faith in general, believes Him to be, but they have still lived a loving, just life, this is called “baptism of the spirit”, to paraphrase the Catechism. In short, even if they do not know God, they are moving toward God by their virtues and their love of neighbor.

Can an atheist go to Heaven? I suppose it would depend. I cannot say what your experience of God has been, and where your spiritual life has been. If you do not believe, I believe you would know when you died, and God would reveal Himself in His splendor. Can a homosexual person go to Heaven? Absolutely, if they live a good and just life like anyone else is expected to, and if they are a Christian they must live by upholding the Gospel. God certainly does not hate you, or see you as lesser, for being gay and an atheist. But He does wish for you to love Him. I wish I could explain better how He wants you to love Him, but I think I need to sleep.

No that explanation will suffice, thank you.

I personally do not find it convincing, but it is enlightening all the same.

EDIT: As an aside, what a relatively civil end to a decent conversation about religion of all things, in NS of all places.
That's a miracle I can get behind.

Lumi’s more patient than most. Whatever I might say about her faith, she does have that.

[South Odreria 2]

I wish I could explain better how He wants you to love Him, but I think I need to sleep.

Well you explained it a lot better than I could.

Anyway, this thread has been salvaged, quite improbably, from a very bad place, and it would be best if we all left it until morning so as to not un-salvage it.