What is a good Christian?

[Joohan]

Tolerance is overrated, after all, we wouldn’t be very Christian Christians if we passively tolerated the things we find morally repugnant. Of course, tolerance is sometimes the correct approach when dealing with certain situations.

"Tolerance is overrated..."

Dangerous words if there ever were any.

Not when there is compassion behind them. A father does not tolerate the wrongful behavior of his children, nor a sibling the mistakes of his kin. They are driven to help because they love them.

If they hated them, then they would say, " I don't care. "

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I don’t know, pissing people off and then beating down their objections, etc, has worked before in my own experience. Take my word for it or not, I don’t really care.

I don't take your word for it. *shrug*

Good for you lmao

[Katganistan]

He also never came to my door with tiresome, manipulative tactics.

I’m guessing your experience is more with JWs or Mormons? (I don’t get door-to-door people cause I live in the country.)

Nah, I've had obnoxious RC people trying to engage in criticizing my not being Catholic enough for them.... right after arguing who was a better Christian in their prayer group and how DARE that person bring Father his tea, clearly they weren't as worthy as the speaker.

When people are full of hypocrisy and telling you how they are the epitome of good Christian life, it's a big turn-off.

[Neanderthaland]

I'm not sure if they've ever had enough political power to really orchestrate intolerance.

A lot of religions have inconstant bouts of tolerance. Zoroastrianism was very tolerant, until it suddenly wasn't. Islam seems to go back and forth. I mentioned the wars of reformation earlier. Those were shockingly intolerant, but in the wake of them the Christian culture of Northern Europe became more tolerant. Buddhism has a pretty good record, but also tends to overlook people doing horrible things on it's behalf (Christianity and Hinduism have this problem sometimes as well.)

IDK. It's almost as though tolerance is a cultural value more than a religious one.

I personally think it's foolish to separate religion from culture.

What I mean to say is that it has more to do with conditions in a society at a given time then it does with scripture or anything.

If more fashion than doctrine.

There are a handful of exceptions of religions that are explicitly tolerant or intolerant as their central theme. But most religions have a history of going back and forth on the issue. Which makes me think that it's not really the religion that is the deciding factor here.

[Katganistan]

Good morning to everyone!

A few things;

1. You quote a passage wherein the beating of children is endorsed, and you claim it is not evil?

2. So by your contention, a good Christian is, while not "good" in the perfect, Christ-like sense, is generally morally good by their mere association with God? My contention has never meant that "good" means perfect, rather that it merely means moral, ethical et cetera. And I do not believe that just because you subscribe to a certain faith, you automatically are a moral person.

3. You compare non-believer to addicts and thus you should help them see the truth, even if that means forcing them to do so. But then you say they must assent freely? How do you square that?

4. I think the idea of the universality of love is not that controversial. If you disagree with how I have defined it, how do you define love? Because, ad we have seen, all people can feel love, and all people can have love for another being, and anyone who judges people for that love is, in my view, not a moral person.

5. You were the one who mentioned the Ten Commandments, which, as I have said, are not really that great. If there are more laws you believe a good Christian should follow, I'm all ears.

1. Disciplining your child is not evil. If you intend to discipline, then you ought to do what is necessary. Slapping their hand, spanking their bottom, etc.
2. If someone truly follows God, and becomes a ‘Good Christian’, then they’re necessarily a moral person.
3. The Church condemns forced conversions because those forced to convert do not genuinely worship God; therefore, it is better that they arrive to the faith without violence. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33
2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

4. There different types of love. But the pertinent ‘love’ is wishing good-will on your fellow man.
5. No, I don’t think I did. I said, ‘the commandments’. Yes, the Decalogue are commandments, but all that God commands is a commandment.

Yup. This old Catholic has a deep and abiding respect and love for Mr. Rogers, who was a Presbyterian minister.

You do not believe the teaching of the Catholic Church, you’re not Catholic.

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

[Atheris]

Good morning to everyone!

A few things;

1. You quote a passage wherein the beating of children is endorsed, and you claim it is not evil?

2. So by your contention, a good Christian is, while not "good" in the perfect, Christ-like sense, is generally morally good by their mere association with God? My contention has never meant that "good" means perfect, rather that it merely means moral, ethical et cetera. And I do not believe that just because you subscribe to a certain faith, you automatically are a moral person.

3. You compare non-believer to addicts and thus you should help them see the truth, even if that means forcing them to do so. But then you say they must assent freely? How do you square that?

4. I think the idea of the universality of love is not that controversial. If you disagree with how I have defined it, how do you define love? Because, ad we have seen, all people can feel love, and all people can have love for another being, and anyone who judges people for that love is, in my view, not a moral person.

5. You were the one who mentioned the Ten Commandments, which, as I have said, are not really that great. If there are more laws you believe a good Christian should follow, I'm all ears.

1. Disciplining your child is not evil. If you intend to discipline, then you ought to do what is necessary. Slapping their hand, spanking their bottom, etc.
2. If someone truly follows God, and becomes a ‘Good Christian’, then they’re necessarily a moral person.
3. The Church condemns forced conversions because those forced to convert do not genuinely worship God; therefore, it is better that they arrive to the faith without violence. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33
2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

4. There different types of love. But the pertinent ‘love’ is wishing good-will on your fellow man.
5. No, I don’t think I did. I said, ‘the commandments’. Yes, the Decalogue are commandments, but all that God commands is a commandment.

Yup. This old Catholic has a deep and abiding respect and love for Mr. Rogers, who was a Presbyterian minister.

You do not believe the teaching of the Catholic Church, you’re not Catholic.

Well, good. I never liked the Catholic Church anyways.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Good morning to everyone!


1. Disciplining your child is not evil. If you intend to discipline, then you ought to do what is necessary. Slapping their hand, spanking their bottom, etc.
2. If someone truly follows God, and becomes a ‘Good Christian’, then they’re necessarily a moral person.
3. The Church condemns forced conversions because those forced to convert do not genuinely worship God; therefore, it is better that they arrive to the faith without violence. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33
2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

4. There different types of love. But the pertinent ‘love’ is wishing good-will on your fellow man.
5. No, I don’t think I did. I said, ‘the commandments’. Yes, the Decalogue are commandments, but all that God commands is a commandment.

You do not believe the teaching of the Catholic Church, you’re not Catholic.

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

Don't you regularly go to bat for abortion and whatnot?

[Luminesa]

I’m guessing your experience is more with JWs or Mormons? (I don’t get door-to-door people cause I live in the country.)

Nah, I've had obnoxious RC people trying to engage in criticizing my not being Catholic enough for them.... right after arguing who was a better Christian in their prayer group and how DARE that person bring Father his tea, clearly they weren't as worthy as the speaker.

When people are full of hypocrisy and telling you how they are the epitome of good Christian life, it's a big turn-off.

That honestly sounds really petty. Over tea of all things? A prostitute brought Jesus oil and bathed His feet, that’s kind of a silly argument to have.

I had a friend come to me who was trying to learn about Catholicism, she didn’t understand what “Communion” meant, and she had told me the people in her prayer group had looked at her funny. Like...it’s not common knowledge. Being a good example I think also means helping the people who DO want to learn. Shunning them for not understanding is...counterproductive.

[Joohan]

Because I keep hearing all the anti-theists try and point towards Mr. Rogers as being a good secular Christian, I'll just go ahead and quote him directly.

" I want to be a vehicle for God to spread His message of Love and Peace. "

" The children who watch the show are my congregation and I take my ministry very seriously. "

Mr. Rogers was an evangelist of the deed

[Andechs-Sisebut]

I think it’s impossible for anyone to be free of violence in life. Jainism, no exception. Though I have no special knowledge of its history, I’m sure you’ll find violence there.

The more extreme Jains drink through cheesecloth so as to not accidentally swallow any bugs that might happen by, and gently sweep in front of their footsteps with a broom to avoid stepping on anything.

I doubt that it's possible for anyone to have a childhood that's free of violence. Since kids are assholes. But it's safe to generalize Jains as being non-violent.

Jains haven’t been separate from politics, and have been cooperative and sponsored by Indian kingdoms. I do not know enough to say anymore than that, but I’d assume that Jains aren’t entirely clean.

Good morning to everyone!


1. Disciplining your child is not evil. If you intend to discipline, then you ought to do what is necessary. Slapping their hand, spanking their bottom, etc.
2. If someone truly follows God, and becomes a ‘Good Christian’, then they’re necessarily a moral person.
3. The Church condemns forced conversions because those forced to convert do not genuinely worship God; therefore, it is better that they arrive to the faith without violence. It is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33
2106 "Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits."34 This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."35

4. There different types of love. But the pertinent ‘love’ is wishing good-will on your fellow man.
5. No, I don’t think I did. I said, ‘the commandments’. Yes, the Decalogue are commandments, but all that God commands is a commandment.

You do not believe the teaching of the Catholic Church, you’re not Catholic.

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

No, you’re not, you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church and numerous times have shown you have nothing but contempt for the Catholic Religion.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

Don't you regularly go to bat for abortion and whatnot?

Katganistan is the epitome of a nominal Catholic. He/she (don’t know, don’t really care) uses the fact that they’re a member of the Church to validate sin. Imagine something like “I’m a Catholic and I think such and such is alright”.

[Neanderthaland]

Because I keep hearing all the anti-theists try and point towards Mr. Rogers as being a good secular Christian, I'll just go ahead and quote him directly.

" I want to be a vehicle for God to spread His message of Love and Peace. "

" The children who watch the show are my congregation and I take my ministry very seriously. "

Mr. Rogers was an evangelist of the deed

I'm on record as saying that if your idea of evangelism is to be more like Mr. Rogers, then you should go ahead and do that. I don't think you will find many people here who object to you being more like Mr. Rogers.

And if that's all evangelism ever was, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it.

[Neutraligon]

No true Scotsman. And ignoring the actual point.

Well, technically, this is all a no true scotsman argument to you - as you don't believe that an objective standard of moral measurement beyond your own.

oh, and how exactly do you think that you kno anything about my own morals?

I've ignored your insinuation that Christians do wrong by spreading the gospel because it's ridiculous.

I view it as wrong as spreading any other religion

By your standards of desiring our apathy,

I do not desire your apathy.

perhaps it makes sense that we should merely hide ourselves in the corner for all times - but according to Christians, we are commanded to evangelize.

I did not ask you to hide in a corner either. There is this nice middle groun between evangelizing where you are not wanted and hiding in a corner. Maybe you should actually ask my views instead of strawmanning me.

It wasn't secular.

Yes it was...because if it where not he would have been unable to reach to children regardless of religion.

Just like the carsalesman or the cult leader does not expect everyone to delight in what you have to say, but you must go on anyway.

The difference being, there is no material gain for us. The reward, is that we come closer to God.[/quote] A gain is a gain regardless of if it is simply self-satisfaction or material.

You do not have 2000 years of martyrdom

What are you talking about

I could do the same thing for practically every religion.

you have a few hundred years of martyrdom and centuries upon centuries of intolerance, violence, and hatred. Tell that to ISIS, who believes what they are doing is the will of their god.

You will find that Hernan Cortez is the exception, and not the rule among missionaries. I will say again, as I have before, that men have done terrible things in the name of the Lord - but that their actions are not representative of what is to be Christian. For those men and women who are filled with holy spirit, spreading the gospels have works of love. It's easy to point at the conquistadors as an example of how evil evangelism is - while ignoring the fact that nearly all missionary work throughout history has consisted of charity and education. Pointing to the actions taken by a few men throughout out a nearly 2000 year history as being representative for the whole of the faith, is as ridiculous as trying to assign ISIS as the standard bearer of Islam.

Like I said, no true scotsman.

Point to your tyrant's, I will point to you multitudes of saints who have suffered for their faith. Point to your murders, I will point to you the orders and missions that drown their misery with charity and love. The history of the Church is one of the Lords's compassion and the struggles of man, and if you've doubts on what it is to spread the truth of the gospels, then perhaps you should read them for yourself?

Your saints do not do anything to the fact that Christianity has a history of intolerance, hate, murder, and other things. I have read the gospels, I found nothing compelling about it. Maybe you should stop assuming what I have and have not done, so far you have been wrong every time

[Godular]

The more extreme Jains drink through cheesecloth so as to not accidentally swallow any bugs that might happen by, and gently sweep in front of their footsteps with a broom to avoid stepping on anything.

I doubt that it's possible for anyone to have a childhood that's free of violence. Since kids are assholes. But it's safe to generalize Jains as being non-violent.

Jains haven’t been separate from politics, and have been cooperative and sponsored by Indian kingdoms. I do not know enough to say anymore than that, but I’d assume that Jains aren’t entirely clean.

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

No, you’re not, you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church and numerous times have shown you have nothing but contempt for the Catholic Religion.

You do not get to decide who is what. I understand there's a sin for that.

[Luminesa]

Because I keep hearing all the anti-theists try and point towards Mr. Rogers as being a good secular Christian, I'll just go ahead and quote him directly.

" I want to be a vehicle for God to spread His message of Love and Peace. "

" The children who watch the show are my congregation and I take my ministry very seriously. "

Mr. Rogers was an evangelist of the deed

I mean that’s definitely evangelization. I guess one difficult part of evangelizing well is being able to relate so well to such a wide audience, and being able to communicate about difficult topics. Mr. Rogers was good at both. There’s a dearth of good evangelizers among those who are not clergymen or ministers.

[Atheris]

Don't you regularly go to bat for abortion and whatnot?

Katganistan is the epitome of a nominal Catholic. He/she (don’t know, don’t really care) uses the fact that they’re a member of the Church to validate sin. Imagine something like “I’m a Catholic and I think such and such is alright”.

Is abortion even against the Bible?

[Neutraligon]

Because I keep hearing all the anti-theists try and point towards Mr. Rogers as being a good secular Christian, I'll just go ahead and quote him directly.

" I want to be a vehicle for God to spread His message of Love and Peace. "

" The children who watch the show are my congregation and I take my ministry very seriously. "

Mr. Rogers was an evangelist of the deed

Sigh, Mr Rogers was most certainly a Christian he was after all a minister. That does not prevent his show from being secular.

[Godular]

Katganistan is the epitome of a nominal Catholic. He/she (don’t know, don’t really care) uses the fact that they’re a member of the Church to validate sin. Imagine something like “I’m a Catholic and I think such and such is alright”.

Is abortion even against the Bible?

Depends on which pope you ask.

[Luminesa]

Well, technically, this is all a no true scotsman argument to you - as you don't believe that an objective standard of moral measurement beyond your own.

oh, and how exactly do you think that you kno anything about my own morals?

I've ignored your insinuation that Christians do wrong by spreading the gospel because it's ridiculous.

I view it as wrong as spreading any other religion

By your standards of desiring our apathy,

I do not desire your apathy.

perhaps it makes sense that we should merely hide ourselves in the corner for all times - but according to Christians, we are commanded to evangelize.

I did not ask you to hide in a corner either. There is this nice middle groun between evangelizing where you are not wanted and hiding in a corner. Maybe you should actually ask my views instead of strawmanning me.

It wasn't secular.

Yes it was...because if it where not he would have been unable to reach to children regardless of religion.

Just like the carsalesman or the cult leader does not expect everyone to delight in what you have to say, but you must go on anyway.

The difference being, there is no material gain for us. The reward, is that we come closer to God.

A gain is a gain regardless of if it is simply self-satisfaction or material.

You do not have 2000 years of martyrdom

What are you talking about

I could do the same thing for practically every religion.

you have a few hundred years of martyrdom and centuries upon centuries of intolerance, violence, and hatred. Tell that to ISIS, who believes what they are doing is the will of their god.

You will find that Hernan Cortez is the exception, and not the rule among missionaries. I will say again, as I have before, that men have done terrible things in the name of the Lord - but that their actions are not representative of what is to be Christian. For those men and women who are filled with holy spirit, spreading the gospels have works of love. It's easy to point at the conquistadors as an example of how evil evangelism is - while ignoring the fact that nearly all missionary work throughout history has consisted of charity and education. Pointing to the actions taken by a few men throughout out a nearly 2000 year history as being representative for the whole of the faith, is as ridiculous as trying to assign ISIS as the standard bearer of Islam.

Like I said, no true scotsman.

Point to your tyrant's, I will point to you multitudes of saints who have suffered for their faith. Point to your murders, I will point to you the orders and missions that drown their misery with charity and love. The history of the Church is one of the Lords's compassion and the struggles of man, and if you've doubts on what it is to spread the truth of the gospels, then perhaps you should read them for yourself?

Your saints do not do anything to the fact that Christianity has a history of intolerance, hate, murder, and other things. I have read the gospels, I found nothing compelling about it. Maybe you should stop assuming what I have and have not done, so far you have been wrong every time[/quote]
I hope that in time the Christian and Jewish communities can be more respectful to each other, even if we disagree on certain things.

[Katganistan]

I am a Catholic, and you can go shit in your hat.

Don't you regularly go to bat for abortion and whatnot?

And don't you advocate murdering monarchs?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Katganistan is the epitome of a nominal Catholic. He/she (don’t know, don’t really care) uses the fact that they’re a member of the Church to validate sin. Imagine something like “I’m a Catholic and I think such and such is alright”.

Is abortion even against the Bible?

Yes, don’t listen to Godular, they quite literally do not know what they’re talking about, and they’ve been told as much in the abortion thread before

[Neutraligon]

I hope that in time the Christian and Jewish communities can be more respectful to each other, even if we disagree on certain things.

Would be nice if you stopped appropriating values that are not simply your own as well as trying to downplay or wave away the history Christianity has with how they treated Jews.

[Atheris]

Is abortion even against the Bible?

Depends on which pope you ask.

Eh, I don't listen to the Pope. Lutheran gang, unite

[Washington Resistance Army]

Don't you regularly go to bat for abortion and whatnot?

And don't you advocate murdering monarchs?

Depends on the monarch and the nation in question really.

[Neanderthaland]

The more extreme Jains drink through cheesecloth so as to not accidentally swallow any bugs that might happen by, and gently sweep in front of their footsteps with a broom to avoid stepping on anything.

I doubt that it's possible for anyone to have a childhood that's free of violence. Since kids are assholes. But it's safe to generalize Jains as being non-violent.

Jains haven’t been separate from politics, and have been cooperative and sponsored by Indian kingdoms. I do not know enough to say anymore than that, but I’d assume that Jains aren’t entirely clean.

They also have a very long history, so it seems likely that there have been a few scandals in there somewhere.

Still, let's not make the best the enemy of the good. They're a far more peaceful religion than most religions. And it's not unjust to generalize them as "non-violent."