Should Native American Nations be made independent countries

[Slavakino]

No. Decentralisation of the USA would cause a collapse of a superpower which then the Chinese will dominate

You make it sound like that would be a bad thing.

Because superpowers need to exist and decentralised states ar only wanted by anarchists and libertarians

[Novus America]

The reservations are an odd concept fr.

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

Nap covered it better, but the reservation system was actually a system to reduced the amount of killing and warfare, within the unfortunate and wrong assumption that both could not coexist.

So it is much more complicated than that.

Also “a” massive genocide indicates a common plan and single event, when the genocidal actions against Native Americans was much more complex than that, involving multiple governments over a long time period, using often inconsistent policies and localized actions not necessarily always ordered by a central government.

The Native American genocide thesis is something akin to saying the Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were part of the same genocide.

[Albrenia]

Swapping out the US for China as world hegemon sounds like swapping a poor leader for a monstrous one.

[Novus America]

Swapping out the US for China as world hegemon sounds like swapping a poor leader for a monstrous one.

Exactly that. The US is obviously flawed and has made many missteps and done many bad things, replacing it with something having all of the same disadvantages with none of the good aspects is not a solution.

[Dahyan]

Lol. No. Nothing that starts with "let's restore monarchy you guys" is ever a good idea.

Which is why it would be great if the CCP collapsed and Taiwan took over the rest of China.

Hell to the no.

[Dahyan]

Well, they are the result of a massive genocide, so yeah.

Nap covered it better, but the reservation system was actually a system to reduced the amount of killing and warfare, within the unfortunate and wrong assumption that both could not coexist.

So it is much more complicated than that.

Also “a” massive genocide indicates a common plan and single event, when the genocidal actions against Native Americans was much more complex than that, involving multiple governments over a long time period, using often inconsistent policies and localized actions not necessarily always ordered by a central government.

The Native American genocide thesis is something akin to saying the Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were part of the same genocide.

It's part of a long-lasting policy of dehumanisation and gradual planned land theft. It may not have been all planned jn one massive scheme, but the underlying idea was similar throughout all those centuries, and even continuing now to a certain extent.

[Cetacea]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

[Dahyan]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

That will create quite a lot of new states. Interesting though, I must admit.

[Novus America]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

Most are far too small for that, many have only a few hundred or few thousand members.
We discussed this previously though, the idea is nice but much more difficult in practice given the very large number and generally small population size of the reservations.
Although as proposed forming them as counties and municipalities with special autonomy within the states they are in is possible and workable.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

[Dahyan]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

Grouping dozens of different cultures and societies in only two states may not be the best idea though.

[Slavakino]

Lol. No. Nothing that starts with "let's restore monarchy you guys" is ever a good idea.

Which is why it would be great if the CCP collapsed and Taiwan took over the rest of China.

This

[Novus America]

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

Grouping dozens of different cultures and societies in only two states may not be the best idea though.

Hundreds to be precise. Especially when these are non contiguous, have little shared economics or infrastructure and have a closer economic, geographic, political and infrastructure connection to the state they are in than to each other. It is probably not workable although an interesting idea.

I would like if it could work, but I do not think it probably would. I do want to improve their representation, resources and protections, but I agree lumping them all into a few states would not necessarily be the best way.

[Dahyan]

Which is why it would be great if the CCP collapsed and Taiwan took over the rest of China.

This

It will never cease to amaze me how some self-declared leftists will turn all-out reactionary when push comes to shove.

But I digress, since it's off topic in this thread.

[Stellar Colonies]

This

It will never cease to amaze me how some self-declared leftists will turn all-out reactionary when push comes to shove.

But I digress, since it's off topic in this thread.

A Taiwanese-style government is more progressive than the """Communist""" government in mainland China.

[Cetacea]

No but the should be fully incorporated enfranchised States within the federation

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

There are 12 reservations larger than the state of Rhode Island

Of the others most are west of the Mississippi so have some degree of proximity. One might put a size/population limit on qualification for being a State and then allow those who dont make threshold to incorporate as counties, continue as reservations or even seek confederation with neigbours based on larger ‘culture areas’.

There are options

[Rojava Free State]

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

There are 12 reservations larger than the state of Rhode Island

Of the others most are west of the Mississippi so have some degree of proximity. One might put a size/population limit on qualification for being a State and then allow those who dont make threshold to incorporate as counties, continue as reservations or even seek confederation with neigbours based on larger ‘culture areas’.

There are options

We really gotta integrate the natives. Not "assimilate" like IM wanted, but integrate. The difference is that assimilation involves completely wiping away someone's heritage and making them part of one monolithic group like how the Han Chinese assimilated surrounding ethnicities. Integration involves people keeping parts of their original culture while identifying with a common American (or maybe another country's) culture. So the Sioux get to keep their celebratory dances but they not only identify as American (many if not most of them already do) but they are provided what other Americans are provided. We can't just abandon the reservations. The whole concept of a reservation almost reminds me of a cross between Auschwitz and a South African township. The reservations need to be integrated into the rest of America, so their standard of living can rise at least somewhat.

[Alistan Democratic Nation]

Non American here. I personally think that the reservations be slowly done away with by giving support to people wanting to move out of the reservations while instituting cultural programs to preserve the cultures.

[Novus America]

How many States? About a million live on reservations, you could maybe make 2 states.

(Non-contiguous, not saying it wouldn't work)

There are 12 reservations larger than the state of Rhode Island

Of the others most are west of the Mississippi so have some degree of proximity. One might put a size/population limit on qualification for being a State and then allow those who dont make threshold to incorporate as counties, continue as reservations or even seek confederation with neigbours based on larger ‘culture areas’.

There are options

Population, not land mass is the issue, none have a population bigger than Rhode Island which has a population comparable to all the reservations combined.

But I agree with having the smaller ones incorporate as autonomous counties or municipalities, which would be what we what need to do with most, as well as the possibility of nearby ones with a similar culture and history forming some sort of confederation for political representation.

[Novus America]

Non American here. I personally think that the reservations be slowly done away with by giving support to people wanting to move out of the reservations while instituting cultural programs to preserve the cultures.

That was our policy in the past, in the 40s to 60s. The thing is while most did leave the reservations a substantial portion wish to stay. They can leave if they want, but those remaining generally do not want to.

So we need to build the reservations up as at least semi functional areas, with better infrastructure and economic development, plus a clearer political status.

[Slavakino]

This

It will never cease to amaze me how some self-declared leftists will turn all-out reactionary when push comes to shove.

But I digress, since it's off topic in this thread.

Because I'm not a sinoboo

[US-SSR]

Nap covered it better, but the reservation system was actually a system to reduced the amount of killing and warfare, within the unfortunate and wrong assumption that both could not coexist.

So it is much more complicated than that.

Also “a” massive genocide indicates a common plan and single event, when the genocidal actions against Native Americans was much more complex than that, involving multiple governments over a long time period, using often inconsistent policies and localized actions not necessarily always ordered by a central government.

The Native American genocide thesis is something akin to saying the Spanish Inquisition and Holocaust were part of the same genocide.

It's part of a long-lasting policy of dehumanisation and gradual planned land theft. It may not have been all planned jn one massive scheme, but the underlying idea was similar throughout all those centuries, and even continuing now to a certain extent.

You want an eye opener, read some of the Bureau of Indian Affairs reports to Congress from the 1850s and 1860s. Extermination, i.e. genocide, was seriously put forward as a solution to the "Indian problem," the main objections being that with all the costly military forces then arrayed against the natives the extermination was hardly proceeding as planned (q.v. Little Big Horn) and that a successful extermination of every native, man, woman and child, might leave the US looking somewhat brutish in the eyes of the rest of the world. As we know the alternative solution was the reservation/boarding school system that tried to "kill the Indian and make him into a white man," with the eqally well-known results.

[Dahyan]

It's part of a long-lasting policy of dehumanisation and gradual planned land theft. It may not have been all planned jn one massive scheme, but the underlying idea was similar throughout all those centuries, and even continuing now to a certain extent.

You want an eye opener, read some of the Bureau of Indian Affairs reports to Congress from the 1850s and 1860s. Extermination, i.e. genocide, was seriously put forward as a solution to the "Indian problem," the main objections being that with all the costly military forces then arrayed against the natives the extermination was hardly proceeding as planned (q.v. Little Big Horn) and that a successful extermination of every native, man, woman and child, might leave the US looking somewhat brutish in the eyes of the rest of the world. As we know the alternative solution was the reservation/boarding school system that tried to "kill the Indian and make him into a white man," with the eqally well-known results.

No wonder that by the time the Confederates came around, they were actually quite successful in drumming up Native support for a war against the US.

(Yes, I am aware of the fact that the Cherokee and some other nations practiced chattel slavery and had a vested economic interest in the war played a big role)

[ImperialRussia]

Times like these no

[Nap the Magnificent]

It's part of a long-lasting policy of dehumanisation and gradual planned land theft. It may not have been all planned jn one massive scheme, but the underlying idea was similar throughout all those centuries, and even continuing now to a certain extent.

You want an eye opener, read some of the Bureau of Indian Affairs reports to Congress from the 1850s and 1860s. Extermination, i.e. genocide, was seriously put forward as a solution to the "Indian problem," the main objections being that with all the costly military forces then arrayed against the natives the extermination was hardly proceeding as planned (q.v. Little Big Horn) and that a successful extermination of every native, man, woman and child, might leave the US looking somewhat brutish in the eyes of the rest of the world. As we know the alternative solution was the reservation/boarding school system that tried to "kill the Indian and make him into a white man," with the eqally well-known results.

Yes, that was the Sheridan plan and one that was thankfully abandoned over the course of the 1870's in favor of the Peace Policy, though it took far too long to fully implement. Philip Sheridan ushered in one of the most brutal and disgusting periods of American-Indian relations. He kept trying to get the entirety of the Bureau of Indian Affairs staffed with only US Army commanders to try and carry out his plans. "Let them kill, skin and sell until the buffalo is exterminated." - Philip Sheridan. He is also most likely responsible for the quote of "The only good Indian is a dead one". The Marias Massacre caused a lot of widespread outrage as the Piegan Blackfoot that had been attacked had generally a) been on decent terms with American settlers b) had been promised protection by the US government c) were not even the band that the US Army was chasing (albeit belonged to the same tribal confederacy). This pushed Grant to slowly kick out US Army officers from the BIA and keep it out of the War Department altogether. He began to staff it with Quakers, Methodists, etc similar type congregations who were thought to be better suited as Indian agents.