Abortion Law Reform Passes in New Zealand

[Agarntrop]

1st trimester covers the first 12 weeks, and although I am a man, I think this chart shows that by then the vast majority of women know they are pregnant.

Sure, but I merely commented on the lack of feelings a fetus has at that stage. The neural net required for that is not developed until much, much later.

Oh, so you were agreeing with me lol. I thought you were claiming pregnant women didnt know they were pregnant until later stages, which is false.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Sure, but I merely commented on the lack of feelings a fetus has at that stage. The neural net required for that is not developed until much, much later.

Oh, so you were agreeing with me lol. I thought you were claiming pregnant women didnt know they were pregnant until later stages, which is false.

There have been some cases of that, but they’re rather rare.

[Agarntrop]

If you do it unprotected it is.

There are any number of reasons one might have sex without protection, chief among them being improper education and lack of access. A person does not necessarily have unprotected sex specifically for the purposes of procreation.

It is wrong to presume otherwise.

Of course, which is why I support comprehensive sex education to prevent unprotected sex.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

God hurt absolutely nobody.

If the Bible is to be believed (which I don't), God hurt and killed plenty...

But this is off-topic...

Indeed it is.

More Biblical barbarism is here:
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[Celritannia]

There are any number of reasons one might have sex without protection, chief among them being improper education and lack of access. A person does not necessarily have unprotected sex specifically for the purposes of procreation.

It is wrong to presume otherwise.

Of course, which is why I support comprehensive sex education to prevent unprotected sex.

Does that stop rape? Or medical conditions? Or altering circumstances?

[Agarntrop]

Of course, which is why I support comprehensive sex education to prevent unprotected sex.

Does that stop rape? Or medical conditions? Or altering circumstances?

Who said anything about me opposing abortion in cases of rape, medical conditions or severe socioeconomic factors?

[Celritannia]

Does that stop rape? Or medical conditions? Or altering circumstances?

Who said anything about me opposing abortion in cases of rape, medical conditions or severe socioeconomic factors?

Fair enough.

[Nakena]

Don't know how you were raised, but my parents never punished the entirety of mankind because I did something they disliked as an adult.
So you're saying God is an abusive parent? Someone should call child protection services.

hehe, no. God is God, I don't know why he chose to do things the way he did. However, mankind was given one very simple rule to follow, and they broke it.

And it isn't the last one. ;^)

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

God hurt absolutely nobody.

If the Bible is to be believed (which I don't), God hurt and killed plenty...

But this is off-topic...

Indeed it is.

So why'd you answer?
I meant that he hurt nobody during the whole eating the fruit thing.

If you want to have a discussion about this NOT on the thread, TG me.

[The New California Republic]

God hurt absolutely nobody.

If the Bible is to be believed (which I don't), God hurt and killed plenty...

So why'd you answer?

Because on the basis of the Bible what you are saying is wrong. Whether I believe it is true or not is irrelevant.

I meant that he hurt nobody during the whole eating the fruit thing.

The snake got cursed, and I class that as getting hurt, so it depends on whether you consider a demonstrably sentient and sapient snake to have personhood, doesn't it?

But again what a person snake did is irrelevant to the abortion question.

[Nakena]

Not really it comes down to theology in the end. It happened in the other thread, so it will be in this.

The only proper alternative would be to asking how much christian concepts should even have a place in legislation or not.

[Katganistan]

Let's put vasectomies up for vote and see how fast you all try to weasel out of it.

I still don't trust you with scissors Kat.

If you see me running, run away!
(I'll likely fall and hurt myself)

Free pregnancy-related healthcare and comprehensive sex ed would go a long way as well.

Definitely agree. However the Christian Right refuses to allow such things.

Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. It should be a matter of last resort

Agreed. But the same Christian right often blocks contraception, sex ed, and support to single or impoverished parents, and blames them for being in the untenable position they find themselves in.

Well, as usual with your anti-Christian tangents, this is false, easily disproven, and probably primarily inspired by willful ignorance.

If you actually bothered to read the passage, it's very specific that God wouldn't destroy Sodom if he found any good people remaining therein who he would have to destroy along with the wicked. There were no righteous women within the city aside from Lot's wife and daughters. Once they had been evacuated, he annihilated the cities, which means no other good people (women or men) remained.

The attempt to gender this as God punishing them for the actions of the men is also completely baseless.

Genesis 18, verse 20-33

And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Sodom and Gomorrah were full of rapists and murderers, they were not sending their best. Lot and his family, specifically his daughters and wife, were the only good people remaining in either city.

The same daughters who lay with Lot?

1. Well then how do you know God didn't invent abortion and intend it to be used considering actually aborting a fetus nearly as difficult as it apparently should be.
2. No, this is how it's going to go: You either prove your argument correct with your chosen viewpoint (Religion) or you don't and prove to the rest of us that religion isn't a good reason to oppose abortion.

Your call.

I answered your question in the Christian discussion thread because the scope of your question exceeds the specific context of abortion law reform in New Zealand.

Thank you.

And none of us are going there to view it, so you haven't proven your argument. Thank you.

[New haven america]

I mean it would help if you could actually show where people are actually expressing a "completely legalise it to own those religious contards" belief.

Good, I hope New Zealand continues to be one of the best English speaking countries and that conservative and religious shackles continue to break world wide.

Hopefully breaking and destroying the shackles of religion and conservatism.

All of you "pro-life" guys are sick in the head. You only want a larger ignorant, starving population. Because that's what makes you conservatards profit. Why is this even a debate?

There were also some wierd ones where someone literally thought that if the fetus was sapient (which in most cases it isnt but anyway) it deserved to be murdered because it was using the woman's body to live.

I never called anyone a Contard, and I find it highly offensive that you'd claim I did. I can come up with far better insults, thank you.

I was merely celebrating the fact that they're getting forcibly dragged into the 21st Century and that their ridiculous laws and standards are being abolished.

[Katganistan]

You can minimise the deaths in both cases by never conducting abortions.

And also treating women and girls with dignity.

By calling them sluts while high-fiving the guys for getting some, from what I observe of society.

Whatever your views on abortion, this is not the time to legalise it. All the people who couldn't legally abortions will flood the system with requests for abortions, and more undo stress is all that the system needs. Wait till bloody fucking Covid-19 dies down

Always an excuse to strip women of their right to healthcare.

[New haven america]

1. Except Adam and his family wouldn't have been able to actually learn without eating the apple which provided him knowledge of the world and the ability to learn things, but Adam and Eve got punished for that little stunt.
2. Military necessity, or because he's preaching heresy. Your choice.

1. Where the heck does the Bible say they were unable to learn things? 2. Learning was never a sin. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world in which they would have lived forever, under one condition, they did not eat the one fruit from that one tree. 3. They did and were punished as anyone would be if they disobeyed their parents.

1. Gee, maybe the tree they ate from shouldn't have been called the Tree of Knowledge or something then.
2. Yes it was, and this is quite common among religions with more dictatorial deities, that learning or advancing culturally/socially/technologically is bad. Prometheus and Greek mythology is also a great example of this behavior and belief.
3. They were punished because they were gaining an ability God didn't want them to have and punished them for daring to gain some semblance of independence.

[Katganistan]

Have you considered that I consider your number completely fictional and irrelevant since none of those dead were ever alive in the first place?

Have you considered that I consider women that abort their children to have forfeited their lives, incurring just execution as murderers (whether that be by their own hand or an authorities)? Therefore, that 50,000 figure is meaningless to me.

That's monstrous, wanting to murder women.

Nope, God created and invented everything.

That's how the universe of the Abrahamic Religions works.

Actually, God invents everything natural. Your thoughts and feelings are entirely yours, despite Him giving you the ability to think and feel in the first place.

You can even worship my fictional pulsar. After all it'll instantly boil/asphyxiate/rip apart Earth without cause, reason or justification. It doesn't even permit humanity to intervene against it. Just like Jahweh.

Except God actually exists. You wouldn't be here if He didn't. Nothing would.

Even as a Christian I concede that there is no empirical evidence that God exists.
Faith is not proof.

[Sundiata]

That makes no sense.

You demand so much of me.

[Nakena]

1. Where the heck does the Bible say they were unable to learn things? 2. Learning was never a sin. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world in which they would have lived forever, under one condition, they did not eat the one fruit from that one tree. 3. They did and were punished as anyone would be if they disobeyed their parents.

1. Gee, maybe the tree they ate from shouldn't have been called the Tree of Knowledge or something then.
2. Yes it was, and this is quite common among religions with more dictatorial deities, that learning or advancing culturally/socially/technologically is bad. Prometheus is also a great example of this behavior and belief.
3. They were punished because they were gaining an ability God didn't want them to have and punished them for daring to gain some semblance of independence.

Pretty much this.

Really makes you think doesnt it?

[Sundiata]

And also treating women and girls with dignity.

By calling them sluts while high-fiving the guys for getting some, from what I observe of society.

That's not only terrible, but it's also not manly to treat women that way.

[New haven america]

By calling them sluts while high-fiving the guys for getting some, from what I observe of society.

That's not only terrible, but it's also not manly to treat women that way.

And yet we find that to be super fucking common behavior in more conservative/religious societies.

Hm...

[Katganistan]

Is there anyone else here with a more moderate belief on abortion, rather than "completely legalise it to own those religious contards" or "BAN BAN BAN all of them because of my own religious beliefs rather than science."?

I don't believe a single person has said to completely legalise it town own religious contards -- other than you.

And yes, if you actually read the thread you would have seen people calling for comprehensive sex ed, easily available contraception, universal healthcare and other social safety nets supporting the impoverished or single parents all as things to reduce the need for abortion -- but I suppose it's too much trouble and much easier to ask others to find it for you.

[Samudera Darussalam]

That's not only terrible, but it's also not manly to treat women that way.

And yet we find that to be super fucking common behavior in more conservative/religious societies.

Hm...

I mean, if we are going to be fair, men shouldn't be exempted from slut-shaming in those societies too.

[Katganistan]

So I can enter your body against your will and suck up your nutrients; and as long as removing me would kill me you would not be allowed to do anything about that ?

The thing is I didnt choose to have you.

Neither did the person seeking an abortion choose to have a baby, so thanks for proving the point.

[New haven america]

And yet we find that to be super fucking common behavior in more conservative/religious societies.

Hm...

I mean, if we are going to be fair, men shouldn't be exempted from slut-shaming in those societies too.

And yet they are, more often than not. So they shouldn't be, but they are.

Also, slut shaming is stupid.

[The New California Republic]

I mean, if we are going to be fair, men shouldn't be exempted from slut-shaming in those societies too.

And yet they are, more often than not. So they shouldn't be, but they are.

Also, slut shaming is stupid.

Indeed. Extending a bad thing so that it covers both men and women equally does not make the thing itself good.