What the heck to do about student debt

[Rainbowsix]

Success shouldn't require up-front investment. That's how you get people trapped in poverty.

College is not the only means to success.

but schools make it sound like it's needed

[Infected Mushroom]

There’s no reason why it can’t just be “I support publicly funded education” (that’s in effect, what it is even though the public is comprised of individuals)

“I support FREE education?” ... really? “Free”?

I take issue with the terminology (comes across as loaded) but I do recognize it’s presence in the debates. Even though to me it sounds strange.

[Ethel mermania]

Yes. Schools workloads and the quality of education varies from school to school. Even from dept. To dept. Within that school

The workload varying doesn't mean that more famous schools necessarily require more work to get a degree.

I didnt go ivy, but the curriculum I had was more difficult than the same courses my friends took at state schools.

[Ethel mermania]

College is not the only means to success.

but schools make it sound like it's needed

Marketing, just like the Crest company says you need pearly white teeth to succeed.

[Ifreann]

As I said, whether one pays taxes has no relation to whether one avails of the education system. Just like everything else that's paid for by the government. You can go to school whether you pay taxes or not. You pay taxes(or don't) whether you go to school or not.

And you aren't even arguing against making higher education available to everyone, you're just trying to make it seem bad by calling the term "free education" propaganda.

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More power to him.

Is money not required to pay for this education?

Can you answer this?

And if money is required, then I ask... how can this be “free”?

It's free in that one doesn't have to pay to access it. There is no charge to the people who use it. Just like how your beloved McDonalds doesn't charge you for their packets of condiments. They're free, even though they cost money. This isn't propaganda, everyone understands how this works.

Yes, if you don’t pay your taxes the schools will continue to run, but only because you and others were (at some point, past, present, or future) paying

You're still not making any argument against third level education being available to everyone. You're still just quibbling over the use of the word "free".

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But society can make it that way for everyone. So why shouldn't we? We've already done and continue to do loads of things to make the world more fair than it would otherwise be, why stop now?

It's not fairer it takes away incentive to do things on your own and be responsible for yourself.

No matter who is footing the bill, one cannot get a degree without taking responsibility for their own learning.

I dont mind caring for those who can not care for themselves. I object to handouts to people who can do themselves.

You say that, but so far as I've seen you're only objecting to handouts to poor people. Rich people getting handouts, not only getting their college education paid for but even getting extra tutoring, you seem to think is fine. I would believe that you object to handouts to people who can do themselves if you were calling for every student, no matter their economic background, to have to work to pay for their college tuition.

[Ethel mermania]

Is money not required to pay for this education?

Can you answer this?

And if money is required, then I ask... how can this be “free”?

It's free in that one doesn't have to pay to access it. There is no charge to the people who use it. Just like how your beloved McDonalds doesn't charge you for their packets of condiments. They're free, even though they cost money. This isn't propaganda, everyone understands how this works.

Yes, if you don’t pay your taxes the schools will continue to run, but only because you and others were (at some point, past, present, or future) paying

You're still not making any argument against third level education being available to everyone. You're still just quibbling over the use of the word "free".

---

It's not fairer it takes away incentive to do things on your own and be responsible for yourself.

No matter who is footing the bill, one cannot get a degree without taking responsibility for their own learning.

I dont mind caring for those who can not care for themselves. I object to handouts to people who can do themselves.

You say that, but so far as I've seen you're only objecting to handouts to poor people. Rich people getting handouts, not only getting their college education paid for but even getting extra tutoring, you seem to think is fine. I would believe that you object to handouts to people who can do themselves if you were calling for every student, no matter their economic background, to have to work to pay for their college tuition.

1. My proposal in the very first post of the thread was making public community college for free. In spite of everything you have said I think it's a good idea for reasons mentioned in that very first post.

2. Paying your own way, is not a handout.

[Ifreann]

The workload varying doesn't mean that more famous schools necessarily require more work to get a degree.

I didnt go ivy, but the curriculum I had was more difficult than the same courses my friends took at state schools.

I don't know if your personal experiences are generalisable to the whole third level education system throughout the world.

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It's free in that one doesn't have to pay to access it. There is no charge to the people who use it. Just like how your beloved McDonalds doesn't charge you for their packets of condiments. They're free, even though they cost money. This isn't propaganda, everyone understands how this works.


You're still not making any argument against third level education being available to everyone. You're still just quibbling over the use of the word "free".

---

No matter who is footing the bill, one cannot get a degree without taking responsibility for their own learning.

You say that, but so far as I've seen you're only objecting to handouts to poor people. Rich people getting handouts, not only getting their college education paid for but even getting extra tutoring, you seem to think is fine. I would believe that you object to handouts to people who can do themselves if you were calling for every student, no matter their economic background, to have to work to pay for their college tuition.

1. My proposal in the very first post of the thread was making public community college for free. In spite of everything you have said I think it's a good idea for reasons mentioned in that very first post.

A yeti cooler and an education are not the same thing. You should not be able to buy your way into a better resume.

Sure you should, if one wants to pay for more education, extra tutoring, more books to put themselves in a better position to succeed, it should be encouraged

2. Paying your own way, is not a handout.

Rich kids getting their bills covered by their parents pay their own way?

[Saiwania]

I dont mind caring for those who can not care for themselves. I object to handouts to people who can do themselves.

Ideally, the aim should be to help people get whatever is needed in terms of skills/education/connections to become successful on their own. There are few situations where someone truly can't ever make money going forward, outside of perhaps being disabled or having dementia.

[Ethel mermania]

I didnt go ivy, but the curriculum I had was more difficult than the same courses my friends took at state schools.

I don't know if your personal experiences are generalisable to the whole third level education system throughout the world.

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1. My proposal in the very first post of the thread was making public community college for free. In spite of everything you have said I think it's a good idea for reasons mentioned in that very first post.

Sure you should, if one wants to pay for more education, extra tutoring, more books to put themselves in a better position to succeed, it should be encouraged

2. Paying your own way, is not a handout.

Rich kids getting their bills covered by their parents pay their own way?

1. They are generalizable to the states, I by far am not the only one with this experience. internationally I couldn't tell you.

2. Yes paying for your kids is paying your own way.

[Ifreann]

I don't know if your personal experiences are generalisable to the whole third level education system throughout the world.

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Rich kids getting their bills covered by their parents pay their own way?

1. They are generalizable to the states, I by far am not the only one with this experience. internationally I couldn't tell you.

2. Yes paying for your kids is paying your own way.

Handouts from one's parents are still handouts. Daddy writing a cheque to Harvard is not paying one's own way.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

The biggest reason student debt is so high is because of the government. Ultimately, it is always the government that ruins things.

It works like this. The government offers student loans at artificially low interest rates, thereby increasing demand for college slots. Colleges have a limited number of students they can enroll. Therefore, tuition goes up due to the Law of Supply and Demand.

The situtation is then exasperated by college waste. In a few states, there are college officials that make more money than the state's governor. The state college oversight board is a victim of Regulatory Capture and they let the colleges due whatever they want instead of capping tuition. Colleges also waste money on hiring dozens of people for bureaucratic "chief diversity officer" positions and offering majors in things like Women's Studies and Social Justice. They also add classes like "Critical White-ness" as electives. All of this costs taxpayer money.


The solution is easy.

• First, privatize all student loans. Completely remove the government from the equation. Bundle all existing loans into packages and sell them off to the highest bidder at a low (preferably lower) interest rate. The government should sell the loans at their exact monetary value (AKA what money the government handed out), in order for the private lenders to make money off of the interest.
• Second, attach requirements to federal funding that schools trim their adminsitrations of political theater. All Diversity Office staff and every social justice course (cream puff stuff like "Critical White-ness" and other white guilt things, etc. etc. etc.) must go. If you don't follow these rules, you don't get federal funding. (They can, of course continue to do this without our tax money.)
• States can do the same as the feds and even go further. I also recommend that state college boards mandate caps on tuition and limit the payment for salaries. When your Chief Diversity Officer is making more than your state's governor, something is wrong.
• Third, put an end to federal and state propaganda (sometimes pushed at taxpayer money) that you need to go to college to succeed. Most (but not all) jobs do not need a college degree. Require school counselors and job advisors (etc.) to shill for alternatives to college. Promote and fund trade schools in particular and discover alternatives to the liberal arts system of academics. The days of requiring a college degree for a non-STEM, non-technical, entry level jobe need to end.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Handouts from one's parents are still handouts. Daddy writing a check to Harvard is not paying one's own way.

By that logic, scholarships aren't paying their own way because the kid doesn't pay out of his pocket. This is in spite of the kid earning it. The kid getting paid through college is because of a parent's act of love and abundance. It's meant to be an investment.

My family saved for my college since the day I was born. In the end, I went to trade school with a five thousand dollar total tuition, and got a Georgia Gambling (HOPE) Scholarship that paid ninety percent of my tuition.

My total costs for college? Five hundred dollars.

[Ifreann]

Handouts from one's parents are still handouts. Daddy writing a check to Harvard is not paying one's own way.

By that logic, scholarships aren't paying their own way because the kid doesn't pay out of his pocket. This is in spite of the kid earning it.

Yes, I would say that someone who qualifies for a scholarship is not paying their own way through college. That's the whole point of scholarships.

The kid getting paid through college is because of a parent's act of love and abundance. It's meant to be an investment.

I'm not saying it's wrong for people with wealth to use it to give their children the best possible life. I'm saying that it's wrong that only rich people can avail themselves of those benefits. Education should be available to everyone.

My family saved for my college since the day I was born. In the end, I went to trade school with a five thousand dollar total tuition, and got a Georgia Gambling (HOPE) Scholarship that paid ninety percent of my tuition.

My total costs for college? Five hundred dollars.

That sounds nice, but I'm not really interested in your life story.

[Saiwania]

My family saved for my college since the day I was born. In the end, I went to trade school with a five thousand dollar total tuition, and got a Georgia Gambling (HOPE) Scholarship that paid ninety percent of my tuition.

So, what did you have to do to land the first job that involved the degree/trade school skills that you went for?

Did you get a paid internship or an apprenticeship? If so, what did you do to get accepted? Plenty of people can get advanced education but might fail to execute on actually using their qualifications effectively. What would you say is most effective in closing an experience gap/deficit that could make it less likely for someone to hire you- if you're trying to break into a field you never actually been in?

[The of Korea]

But society can make it that way for everyone. So why shouldn't we? We've already done and continue to do loads of things to make the world more fair than it would otherwise be, why stop now?

It's not fairer it takes away incentive to do things on your own and be responsible for yourself. I dont mind caring for those who can not care for themselves. I object to handouts to people who can do themselves.

if you agree that success should be based on merit, then why not support an equal playing field for everyone? People being born into lower socioeconomic positions gives them generally a worse education and a worse chance of success in life, just because their parents didn't have money.

[Ethel mermania]

It's not fairer it takes away incentive to do things on your own and be responsible for yourself. I dont mind caring for those who can not care for themselves. I object to handouts to people who can do themselves.

if you agree that success should be based on merit, then why not support an equal playing field for everyone? People being born into lower socioeconomic positions gives them generally a worse education and a worse chance of success in life, just because their parents didn't have money.

It's not my place or desire to pay for it. If they want the education there are means to get it. If they have to work harder, that's life I know plenty of folks who have done so.

Besides the single best thing you can do for poor peoples upward mobility is to keep families together.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/harv ... l-mobility

[South Ccanda]

College is not the only means to success.

but schools make it sound like it's needed

Schools tend to do this often, and its a real shame. You could go to a technical school for two years and make double what your teachers make once you graduate.

[South Ccanda]

but schools make it sound like it's needed

Marketing, just like the Crest company says you need pearly white teeth to succeed.

And that you have "Halitosis" if you don't use their brand.