NATION

PASSWORD

UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

User avatar
Agarntrop
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8342
Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:49 am

Vassenor wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:> no deal Brexit

Imagine calling yourself "left-wing" then sucking up to a right-wing trading block which forces its members to sell off their industries.


What, the USA?

Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?
IC: The State of Taliana
Labour Party (UK), Progressive Democrat (US)

Our NHS Is Not For Sale!

Sanders 2020 Biden 2020

Starmer 2024 - Nobody be stoppin that FACTION FREE FURY
Views
Join NS P2TM's pre-eminent US politics RP!
Land of the Free
Senator Barry Anderson (R-MO)
Governor-elect Tara Misra (R-KY)
Acting Caucus Chair Representative John Atang (D-NY03)
Governor Max Smith (R-AZ)

User avatar
The Islands of Versilia
Minister
 
Posts: 2821
Founded: Feb 21, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Islands of Versilia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:53 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Islands of Versilia wrote:
I’m more of the opinion Brexit was a plot by anti-British, pro-UR/CPC traitors orchestrated by paid-for ideologues and corpocrats. It’s absolutely dastardly to disempower the UK in such a manner and the fact people bought the rhetoric only makes me hate my fellow citizens even more.


It was a ballot box riot, comparable to when minorities burn down their own communities. Support was over 70% of laborers, and 59% of the unemployed.


It’s just... so absolutely stupid that we found ourselves patting each other on the back for leaving the our best trading partner and overall boon to our national wealth and are now selling ourselves out even harder to the US and China. We’ve weakened ourselves to the extent that even if we’d tried we’d be barely anything more than a regional power - one that lacks a spine no less.

Had we been smarter, we would’ve stayed in Europe and actively worked to reform it so that it would be more beneficial not only to Britons but Europeans as a whole so that we could regain some semblance of hegemony or global power.

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52840
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:54 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
What, the USA?

Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?


Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Team Mystic
#iamEUropean

User avatar
Agarntrop
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8342
Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:55 am

Vassenor wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?


Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

I'm not.

When did I say I opposed the EU workers' rights laws?
IC: The State of Taliana
Labour Party (UK), Progressive Democrat (US)

Our NHS Is Not For Sale!

Sanders 2020 Biden 2020

Starmer 2024 - Nobody be stoppin that FACTION FREE FURY
Views
Join NS P2TM's pre-eminent US politics RP!
Land of the Free
Senator Barry Anderson (R-MO)
Governor-elect Tara Misra (R-KY)
Acting Caucus Chair Representative John Atang (D-NY03)
Governor Max Smith (R-AZ)

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52840
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:57 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

I'm not.

When did I say I opposed the EU workers' rights laws?


You're the one saying Brexit is a good thing that leftists should support. Brexit is being used as an opportunity by this government to strip away those rights now that the EU no longer guarantees them.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Team Mystic
#iamEUropean

User avatar
Hirota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6362
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:34 am

Oh oh, 'member when most "right-wing" Tory MPs were campaigning for remain?

'Member when op-ed "lefties" such as Owen Jones were actively advocating for "lexit?"

'Member when "left-wing" Labour elected Bennite and long time euro sceptic to lead the party?

Hirota 'members.

It's almost as if using dumb labels like "left" or "right" and correlating them to pro-brexit or anti-brexit positions is a stupid oversimplification and that Brexit was - and continues to be - an issue that transcends such petty tribalism.
Last edited by Hirota on Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted, pedants and koi carp.
Those affected by the views, opinions or general demeanour of this poster should review this puppy picture. Those affected by puppy pictures should consider investing in an isolation tank.

Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
I use obviously in italics to emphasise the conveying of sarcasm. If I've put excessive obviously's into a post that means I'm being sarcastic

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55811
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:11 am

Hirota wrote:Oh oh, 'member when most "right-wing" Tory MPs were campaigning for remain?

'Member when op-ed "lefties" such as Owen Jones were actively advocating for "lexit?"

'Member when "left-wing" Labour elected Bennite and long time euro sceptic to lead the party?

Hirota 'members.

It's almost as if using dumb labels like "left" or "right" and correlating them to pro-brexit or anti-brexit positions is a stupid oversimplification and that Brexit was - and continues to be - an issue that transcends such petty tribalism.


Alternatively, it's a new paradigm on the political spectrum.

Similar as how to Belgium has flemish and walloon parties that can agree on a great variety of issues with each other, except for the whole language thing.

A new antithesis in politics is hardly something unique to the British political landscape.

If it is strong enough, it will reshape the landscape into new political tribes, which are hardly petty from a bigger perspective . And ending the broad church of the conservatives (among others).
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Heaven is other people
Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
Silent is an anagram of listen.
Male. Please address me as 'he'.
Blaat - all fluff, all action
This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54469
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:47 am

The Islands of Versilia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It was a ballot box riot, comparable to when minorities burn down their own communities. Support was over 70% of laborers, and 59% of the unemployed.


It’s just... so absolutely stupid that we found ourselves patting each other on the back for leaving the our best trading partner and overall boon to our national wealth and are now selling ourselves out even harder to the US and China. We’ve weakened ourselves to the extent that even if we’d tried we’d be barely anything more than a regional power - one that lacks a spine no less.

Had we been smarter, we would’ve stayed in Europe and actively worked to reform it so that it would be more beneficial not only to Britons but Europeans as a whole so that we could regain some semblance of hegemony or global power.


The EU trade arrangements do not benefit the people who voted for Brexit. That we've gone from one set of arrangements that exclude the needs of these regions, to another set of arrangements that exclude them, does not mean they aren't alternatives that have been ignored. People are acting like there's a binary between "EU" and "Not in the EU" in terms of trade deals, and comparing the ones we're writing now to the ones when we were in the EU, obviously that's worse for everyone.

But, that's kind of the point. Our current trade set up is designed to benefit remainer areas at the expense of leave ones.

Like, for comparison of how gaslighty that is, imagine if "If we repeal Jim Crow, things will get worse for you." and then it's repealed, and they just write even worse anti-black laws while telling black people they are thick and didn't listen to the warnings. It's rich remainer regions blaming areas impoverished by trade arrangements geared to benefit remainer areas that their poverty is their own fault and they should have accepted arrangements geared to benefit remainer areas and impoverish leaver ones, because the alternative "Will be worse", rather than us writing trade agreements with an eye towards regional equality.

"If you say the rich shouldn't pay 10% less taxes than the poor, you're going to ruin your economies and things will get worse, we're the experts here."
"The rich shouldn't pay 10% less taxes than the poor."
"ALRIGHT! We'll pay 15% less! There, you got what you wanted and now everything is ruined, are you happy now you dumb fuck?"

This is the attitude the remainer areas and those writing our trade arrangements have had to this issue, and the gloating over how brexit is going to impoverish those who voted for it more as though it's some divine inevitability is used to obscure the fact that this is a result of the *policy choices being made in how to handle brexit*, policy choices made to protect remainer areas interests as best as they can be protected (since that is where the wealth currently is) and without consideration for leaver areas needs, and that there are alternatives which could result in a more balanced approach that make remainer areas slightly worse off, but greatly enrichen leaver areas so there is parity. Instead, we're pursuing a policy of protecting the wealth of remainer areas as much as possible, which essentially means we're copying the trade dynamics people objected to in the first place.

It's also fostering classist sentiment in that now the rich remainer areas have given themselves an excuse to pretend the poverty isn't a direct result of them designing policy to enrich them at the expense of leaver areas, and will result in them blaming leaver areas for their own poverty because "They voted for it". This meme is also being pushed by progressives because they have no self-awareness and largely engaged with Brexit in terms of "That's racist", and because of the impacts Progressive ideology has in terms of making them hate the white working classes in the first place and lack empathy for them, see here;

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... _privilege

Advocacy for altering the EU so it benefitted leaver areas rather than impoverishing them would have been helpful, but should have been undertaken decades ago.

My expectation is that we'll see something akin to Brexit arise again with another trade reform movement arising in Leaver areas, and if it achieves a majority, the attitude will be far more hostile and less conciliatory to remainer areas interests as a result of how remainer interests handled this opportunity for reconciliation, which simply swings the pendulum. It will also indicate to the international community that trade agreements with Britain are unstable, largely because of the factional conflict and the selfishness of remainer areas and their relentless pursuit of their own interests at the expense of the rest of the country, and how this results in continual backlash and tearing up of agreements.

Hopefully, foreign pressure will resolve the issue as other countries become aware of the dynamic and start refusing to make deals with us unless we can show the leave areas will be satisfied with them.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:07 am, edited 10 times in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

User avatar
Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:49 am

Vassenor wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:It's going to be great, aren't you excited for Brexit?


Dig the fallout shelter another twenty feet deeper.

Wonder if it'll still be great once the Wreckxit results in people being unable to hold jobs, pay rent..?
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
The Islands of Versilia
Minister
 
Posts: 2821
Founded: Feb 21, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Islands of Versilia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:26 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:-SNIP-


I’ll state that I personally lack knowledge on specifics, I've been taking my stance based on my own ideological and economic conclusions based on admittedly not as extensively informed information as those held by others here on this thread. As far as I know for sure, it’s “south is much richer than north”. It’s of my belief that, in general, we benefit far more from tariff free-trade with the European Union member-states than we do otherwise. While we are now free again to make our own trade deals, this puts us at a far greater disadvantage as a lesser power compared to great powers like the PRC, America and similar states in particular. We had more international weight being within the EU than we do now, which I believe we desperately need in order to maintain some relative independence from further interference from Beijing, Washington and Moscow.

Were we still in the EU, I’d say we’d need to adapt our economic expertise and policies to give us more weight in the EU itself and to create some form of mutual dependency. In my ideal scenario this would further European integration and European democracy, transparency and support between member-states. I’m neutral on European federalism, being solely against it when monarchies may be abolished, but fully supportive of it if it meant the restorations of European kingdoms and - though impossible - a confederal constitutional monarchy confederation-wide. Think of the EU becoming more of a... Holy European Empire, but modern and able to challenge modern issues and powers to reassert European supremacy.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28700
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:28 pm

Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 141385
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:25 am


Who will contact trace the contact tracers?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28700
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:45 am

Ifreann wrote:

Who will contact trace the contact tracers?

I dunno. Coastguard?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:04 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?


Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.


The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
CoraSpia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8964
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:43 pm

Thought I'd share a very good spectator article so Ostro doesn't have to:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... behind/amp
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5706
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:52 pm

Novus America wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.


The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.


Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55811
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:57 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.


Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here :meh: Left-nationalism.
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Heaven is other people
Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
Silent is an anagram of listen.
Male. Please address me as 'he'.
Blaat - all fluff, all action
This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5706
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:08 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here :meh: Left-nationalism.


The answer certainly wasn't Brexit. The EU is more to the left than the US.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:26 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.


Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:33 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here :meh: Left-nationalism.


The answer certainly wasn't Brexit. The EU is more to the left than the US.


Brexit dies not involve joining the US, which is in some ways less neoliberal than than EU, (although in some ways more) being more open to tariffs and rejecting austerity based fiscal policies. The US is actually more left in some ways than the EU, although less left than others, though the left right dichotomy falls apart here, rejection of neoliberal economics is not inherently left wing (would anyone say Hamilton was a leftist?).

The US will at least not set austerity spending rules on you unlike the EU.

Because the EU is decidedly neoliberal staying in it made the economic changes nearly impossible but sure trade with the US hardly solves the problem either.

Leaving the EU was of course no silver bullet, but trying to fix things in the EU very hard as well.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55811
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:37 am

Novus America wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.


It gets worse. Inside the EU, the UK has(/had) a chance to reform it (of course, provided it's not the Tories in charge of the UK).

With the US, you're not at the table.
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Heaven is other people
Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
Silent is an anagram of listen.
Male. Please address me as 'he'.
Blaat - all fluff, all action
This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19101
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:45 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here :meh: Left-nationalism.


if only there was some way to combine nationalism and socialism. surprised no one else has tried it tbh.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
T <---- THE INFAMOUS T

User avatar
Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36135
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:45 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.


It gets worse. Inside the EU, the UK has(/had) a chance to reform it (of course, provided it's not the Tories in charge of the UK).

With the US, you're not at the table.


But again the UK is not joining the US. And the US does not really set austerity budget rules in trade deals.
But sure I fully acknowledge the trade deals with the US solves nothing, but realistically even with a Labour government reforming the EU is nearly impossible. Sure it might be out of the frying pan into the fire, but you are fried if you stay in the pan too.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52840
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:05 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.


The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here :meh: Left-nationalism.


I mean you haven't started claiming that the only way to not alienate the working class is to pander to the old stereotypes about them being cartoonishly racist yet.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Team Mystic
#iamEUropean

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52840
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:24 am

MPs vote to block protections for the NHS in future trade deals.

But tell me more about how Brexit was supposed to save the NHS.

#CorbynWasRight
Last edited by Vassenor on Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Team Mystic
#iamEUropean

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Absolon-7, Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Beatitas, Celritannia, Dummie, Empirical Switzerland, Fahran, Fluvannia, Google [Bot], Gun Manufacturers, Islandian Murder Mystery, Kannap, Nobel Hobos 2, North Prarie, Pioneer People, Punished UMN, Rainbow Forest, Region of Dwipantara, Rusozak, Seangoli, Senkaku, Stellar Colonies, The Black Forrest, The Greater Ohio Valley, Trollzyn the Infinite

Advertisement

Remove ads