UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Vassenor]

What, the USA?

Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?

Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

[Agarntrop]

Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?

Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

I'm not.

When did I say I opposed the EU workers' rights laws?

[Vassenor]

Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

I'm not.

When did I say I opposed the EU workers' rights laws?

You're the one saying Brexit is a good thing that leftists should support. Brexit is being used as an opportunity by this government to strip away those rights now that the EU no longer guarantees them.

[Hirota]

Oh oh, 'member when most "right-wing" Tory MPs were campaigning for remain?

'Member when op-ed "lefties" such as Owen Jones were actively advocating for "lexit?"

'Member when "left-wing" Labour elected Bennite and long time euro sceptic to lead the party?

Hirota 'members.

It's almost as if using dumb labels like "left" or "right" and correlating them to pro-brexit or anti-brexit positions is a stupid oversimplification and that Brexit was - and continues to be - an issue that transcends such petty tribalism.

[The Blaatschapen]

Oh oh, 'member when most "right-wing" Tory MPs were campaigning for remain?

'Member when op-ed "lefties" such as Owen Jones were actively advocating for "lexit?"

'Member when "left-wing" Labour elected Bennite and long time euro sceptic to lead the party?

Hirota 'members.

It's almost as if using dumb labels like "left" or "right" and correlating them to pro-brexit or anti-brexit positions is a stupid oversimplification and that Brexit was - and continues to be - an issue that transcends such petty tribalism.

Alternatively, it's a new paradigm on the political spectrum.

Similar as how to Belgium has flemish and walloon parties that can agree on a great variety of issues with each other, except for the whole language thing.

A new antithesis in politics is hardly something unique to the British political landscape.

If it is strong enough, it will reshape the landscape into new political tribes, which are hardly petty from a bigger perspective . And ending the broad church of the conservatives (among others).

[Ostroeuropa]

It was a ballot box riot, comparable to when minorities burn down their own communities. Support was over 70% of laborers, and 59% of the unemployed.

It’s just... so absolutely stupid that we found ourselves patting each other on the back for leaving the our best trading partner and overall boon to our national wealth and are now selling ourselves out even harder to the US and China. We’ve weakened ourselves to the extent that even if we’d tried we’d be barely anything more than a regional power - one that lacks a spine no less.

Had we been smarter, we would’ve stayed in Europe and actively worked to reform it so that it would be more beneficial not only to Britons but Europeans as a whole so that we could regain some semblance of hegemony or global power.

The EU trade arrangements do not benefit the people who voted for Brexit. That we've gone from one set of arrangements that exclude the needs of these regions, to another set of arrangements that exclude them, does not mean they aren't alternatives that have been ignored. People are acting like there's a binary between "EU" and "Not in the EU" in terms of trade deals, and comparing the ones we're writing now to the ones when we were in the EU, obviously that's worse for everyone.

But, that's kind of the point. Our current trade set up is designed to benefit remainer areas at the expense of leave ones.

Like, for comparison of how gaslighty that is, imagine if "If we repeal Jim Crow, things will get worse for you." and then it's repealed, and they just write even worse anti-black laws while telling black people they are thick and didn't listen to the warnings. It's rich remainer regions blaming areas impoverished by trade arrangements geared to benefit remainer areas that their poverty is their own fault and they should have accepted arrangements geared to benefit remainer areas and impoverish leaver ones, because the alternative "Will be worse", rather than us writing trade agreements with an eye towards regional equality.

"If you say the rich shouldn't pay 10% less taxes than the poor, you're going to ruin your economies and things will get worse, we're the experts here."
"The rich shouldn't pay 10% less taxes than the poor."
"ALRIGHT! We'll pay 15% less! There, you got what you wanted and now everything is ruined, are you happy now you dumb fuck?"

This is the attitude the remainer areas and those writing our trade arrangements have had to this issue, and the gloating over how brexit is going to impoverish those who voted for it more as though it's some divine inevitability is used to obscure the fact that this is a result of the *policy choices being made in how to handle brexit*, policy choices made to protect remainer areas interests as best as they can be protected (since that is where the wealth currently is) and without consideration for leaver areas needs, and that there are alternatives which could result in a more balanced approach that make remainer areas slightly worse off, but greatly enrichen leaver areas so there is parity. Instead, we're pursuing a policy of protecting the wealth of remainer areas as much as possible, which essentially means we're copying the trade dynamics people objected to in the first place.

It's also fostering classist sentiment in that now the rich remainer areas have given themselves an excuse to pretend the poverty isn't a direct result of them designing policy to enrich them at the expense of leaver areas, and will result in them blaming leaver areas for their own poverty because "They voted for it". This meme is also being pushed by progressives because they have no self-awareness and largely engaged with Brexit in terms of "That's racist", and because of the impacts Progressive ideology has in terms of making them hate the white working classes in the first place and lack empathy for them, see here;

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... _privilege

Advocacy for altering the EU so it benefitted leaver areas rather than impoverishing them would have been helpful, but should have been undertaken decades ago.

My expectation is that we'll see something akin to Brexit arise again with another trade reform movement arising in Leaver areas, and if it achieves a majority, the attitude will be far more hostile and less conciliatory to remainer areas interests as a result of how remainer interests handled this opportunity for reconciliation, which simply swings the pendulum. It will also indicate to the international community that trade agreements with Britain are unstable, largely because of the factional conflict and the selfishness of remainer areas and their relentless pursuit of their own interests at the expense of the rest of the country, and how this results in continual backlash and tearing up of agreements.

Hopefully, foreign pressure will resolve the issue as other countries become aware of the dynamic and start refusing to make deals with us unless we can show the leave areas will be satisfied with them.

[Gormwood]

It's going to be great, aren't you excited for Brexit?

Dig the fallout shelter another twenty feet deeper.

Wonder if it'll still be great once the Wreckxit results in people being unable to hold jobs, pay rent..?

[The Islands of Versilia]

-SNIP-

I’ll state that I personally lack knowledge on specifics, I've been taking my stance based on my own ideological and economic conclusions based on admittedly not as extensively informed information as those held by others here on this thread. As far as I know for sure, it’s “south is much richer than north”. It’s of my belief that, in general, we benefit far more from tariff free-trade with the European Union member-states than we do otherwise. While we are now free again to make our own trade deals, this puts us at a far greater disadvantage as a lesser power compared to great powers like the PRC, America and similar states in particular. We had more international weight being within the EU than we do now, which I believe we desperately need in order to maintain some relative independence from further interference from Beijing, Washington and Moscow.

Were we still in the EU, I’d say we’d need to adapt our economic expertise and policies to give us more weight in the EU itself and to create some form of mutual dependency. In my ideal scenario this would further European integration and European democracy, transparency and support between member-states. I’m neutral on European federalism, being solely against it when monarchies may be abolished, but fully supportive of it if it meant the restorations of European kingdoms and - though impossible - a confederal constitutional monarchy confederation-wide. Think of the EU becoming more of a... Holy European Empire, but modern and able to challenge modern issues and powers to reassert European supremacy.

[The New California Republic]

Talk about ironic:

Health officials are investigating an outbreak of coronavirus at an NHS Test and Trace call centre in North Lanarkshire.

[Ifreann]

Talk about ironic:

Health officials are investigating an outbreak of coronavirus at an NHS Test and Trace call centre in North Lanarkshire.

Who will contact trace the contact tracers?

[The New California Republic]

Talk about ironic:

Health officials are investigating an outbreak of coronavirus at an NHS Test and Trace call centre in North Lanarkshire.

Who will contact trace the contact tracers?

I dunno. Coastguard?

[Novus America]

Haha snarky response.

Now, do you have any idea how the EU functions?

Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.

[CoraSpia]

Thought I'd share a very good spectator article so Ostro doesn't have to:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... behind/amp

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Do you? Because I'm curious how you're able to look at it and write it off as a "right-wing trading bloc".

I'm also curious how you can call yourself a Democratic Socialist but be OK with giving a right-wing government carte blanche to eviscerate workers' rights and civil rights laws.

The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

[The Blaatschapen]

The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here Left-nationalism.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here Left-nationalism.

The answer certainly wasn't Brexit. The EU is more to the left than the US.

[Novus America]

The EU is definitely rather on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, like it or not. If you like outsourcing, soaring wealth inequality with a rainbow flag and such the EU achieved that, but is that the goal?

The thing is while it is true the UK may not fix things on its own, it is unlikely they can fix them in the EU either. Of course neoliberalism outside the EU is not going to be better than the neoliberalism inside it, which is a fair point.

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.

[Novus America]

The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here Left-nationalism.

The answer certainly wasn't Brexit. The EU is more to the left than the US.

Brexit dies not involve joining the US, which is in some ways less neoliberal than than EU, (although in some ways more) being more open to tariffs and rejecting austerity based fiscal policies. The US is actually more left in some ways than the EU, although less left than others, though the left right dichotomy falls apart here, rejection of neoliberal economics is not inherently left wing (would anyone say Hamilton was a leftist?).

The US will at least not set austerity spending rules on you unlike the EU.

Because the EU is decidedly neoliberal staying in it made the economic changes nearly impossible but sure trade with the US hardly solves the problem either.

Leaving the EU was of course no silver bullet, but trying to fix things in the EU very hard as well.

[The Blaatschapen]

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.

It gets worse. Inside the EU, the UK has(/had) a chance to reform it (of course, provided it's not the Tories in charge of the UK).

With the US, you're not at the table.

[Souseiseki]

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here Left-nationalism.

if only there was some way to combine nationalism and socialism. surprised no one else has tried it tbh.

[Novus America]

Well as I said neoliberalism outside the EU is not better than neoliberalism inside the EU, but staying in the EU requires neoliberalism as well. So leaving only to sign more neoliberal trade deals is not going to help, but neither is staying in the neoliberal EU going to help.

Although the US has move somewhat away from neoliberalism in trade, probably more so than the EU in the last few years.
But sure a trade deal with the US is no solution either.

It gets worse. Inside the EU, the UK has(/had) a chance to reform it (of course, provided it's not the Tories in charge of the UK).

With the US, you're not at the table.

But again the UK is not joining the US. And the US does not really set austerity budget rules in trade deals.
But sure I fully acknowledge the trade deals with the US solves nothing, but realistically even with a Labour government reforming the EU is nearly impossible. Sure it might be out of the frying pan into the fire, but you are fried if you stay in the pan too.

[Vassenor]

Never mind we can get a trade deal with the US, who are on the side of neoliberal economics and trade, outsourcing, soaring inequality, lower food standards, a worse attitude to workers rights etc. but where we don't have a voice.

Margaret Thatcher helping Rupert Murdoch get a stranglehold over UK media is to blame for all of this; Tony Blair, joining in the Gulf War, David Cameron, Brexit.

The left needs a convincing answer on neoliberalism. And one that doens't alienate working cla....


Damn, I start to see the points of DI and Ostro here Left-nationalism.

I mean you haven't started claiming that the only way to not alienate the working class is to pander to the old stereotypes about them being cartoonishly racist yet.

[Vassenor]

MPs vote to block protections for the NHS in future trade deals.

But tell me more about how Brexit was supposed to save the NHS.

#CorbynWasRight

[Hirota]

At 10:30 this morning the Intelligence and Security Committee will finallly publish its long awaited report on the Russian threat to the UK.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

The answer certainly wasn't Brexit. The EU is more to the left than the US.

Brexit dies not involve joining the US, which is in some ways less neoliberal than than EU, (although in some ways more) being more open to tariffs and rejecting austerity based fiscal policies. The US is actually more left in some ways than the EU, although less left than others, though the left right dichotomy falls apart here, rejection of neoliberal economics is not inherently left wing (would anyone say Hamilton was a leftist?).

The US will at least not set austerity spending rules on you unlike the EU.

Because the EU is decidedly neoliberal staying in it made the economic changes nearly impossible but sure trade with the US hardly solves the problem either.

Leaving the EU was of course no silver bullet, but trying to fix things in the EU very hard as well.

Nobody is talking about joining the US. We are talking about trade and the economic realities of the world for the UK outside of the EU.

Given that we have now burned our bridges with China, we are going to need a big trade deal settled quickly with someone. That really puts us over a barrel in terms of negotiating with the US.

I expect we will start saying really nice things about India soon as well.