Pro-stem-cell-research yet pro-Christianity?

[Prosa]

I personally believe the best solution is to mind your own damn business. Don’t like abortions? Great! Don’t get one. Don’t like IVF (even though there’s literally nothing about it to dislike)? Great! Don’t use it. Don’t like stem cell research? Great! You’re probably not a scientist, medical professional, or cancer patient so it likely doesn’t affect you. Don’t like religion? Great! Don’t participate in it. Don’t like movements of any kind forcing their beliefs on others? Great! Move on with your life and let them embarrass themselves. The problem here is that people are too concerned with what others are doing and less concerned about their own behavior.

Don't like poaching? Great! Don't poach anything.
Don't like graverobbery? Great! Don't rob any graves.
Don't like murder? Great! Don't murder anybody.
Don't like terrorists amassing weapons of mass destruction? Great! Don't sell them any.

Except those have nothing to do with anything being discussed here. Then again, your signature proves you won’t listen to reason, so I don’t know what else to say.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

I personally believe the best solution is to mind your own damn business. Don’t like abortions? Great! Don’t get one. Don’t like IVF (even though there’s literally nothing about it to dislike)? Great! Don’t use it. Don’t like stem cell research? Great! You’re probably not a scientist, medical professional, or cancer patient so it likely doesn’t affect you. Don’t like religion? Great! Don’t participate in it. Don’t like movements of any kind forcing their beliefs on others? Great! Move on with your life and let them embarrass themselves. The problem here is that people are too concerned with what others are doing and less concerned about their own behavior.

The problem is that some people believe an atrocity is being committed and have a moral obligation.
The argument is not to control other people's bodies or people’s research but to save these hypothetical “babies”. (On the flip side you could talk about how some might think the same, in a controlling manner, about color choice or something trivial).

Personally I think as of now we have no way of proving such a thing as of now.
But the earlier the better, as long as alternate stem cell sources are committed to.

[Greater Catarapania]

Don’t like religion? Great! Don’t participate in it.

In theory that's a solution. In practice the religious will vote.

That's the beauty of democracy!

[Katganistan]

And the answer is, "Yes, there are."

Bringing this... almost back on topic, then, how does Christianity's role, in motivating people to criminalize abortion, not make you re-evaluate your view of Christianity?

Because surprise, surprise, people can support some things and not others.

Like loving pizza but hating buffalo chicken pizza.

Almost nothing in the world, especially people, can be looked at in terms of 100% supporting anything, 100% good or evil, et cetera.

[Katganistan]

I personally believe the best solution is to mind your own damn business. Don’t like abortions? Great! Don’t get one. Don’t like IVF (even though there’s literally nothing about it to dislike)? Great! Don’t use it. Don’t like stem cell research? Great! You’re probably not a scientist, medical professional, or cancer patient so it likely doesn’t affect you. Don’t like religion? Great! Don’t participate in it. Don’t like movements of any kind forcing their beliefs on others? Great! Move on with your life and let them embarrass themselves. The problem here is that people are too concerned with what others are doing and less concerned about their own behavior.

I agree with most of what you've said.

[Sundiata]

I'm opposed to embryonic stem-cell research in instances that would violate the embryo's right to life.

[Katganistan]

If we were paying women to purposefully get pregnant to abort the embryo in order to harvest the stem cells, then no way José, I am completely against that sort of behavior.

Harvesting stem cells from aborted or miscarried embryos is something I have no problem with, no matter how they came into being (with the exception of being farmed as above). At that point the cells are simply medical waste and are going to be disposed of. There is no reason not to put them to good use.

[A m e n r i a]

First of all, I'm not sure why you need to bring up the US all of the sudden in an international forum on an international topic. Second of all, you mentioned religion and Christianity, who oppose biological meddling, which doesn't make sense, as most Christians are liberals who support all sorts of scientific schenanigans, savoury or not.

As a believer, I'll give my two cents though. I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. More hard-line Muslims, especially in the far-right of the political spectrum, think that changing what you are is an act of ungratefulness and should be banned. I disagree. I'm sure God would understand if we wanted to beocme the best versions of ourselves.

[Katganistan]

First of all, I'm not sure why you need to bring up the US all of the sudden in an international forum on an international topic. Second of all, you mentioned religion and Christianity, who oppose biological meddling, which doesn't make sense, as most Christians are liberals who support all sorts of scientific schenanigans, savoury or not.

As a believer, I'll give my two cents though. I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. More hard-line Muslims, especially in the far-right of the political spectrum, think that changing what you are is an act of ungratefulness and should be banned. I disagree. I'm sure God would understand if we wanted to beocme the best versions of ourselves.

I'd agree. He gave us intelligence and the capacity to change our world; surely there's a reason for it.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Bringing this... almost back on topic, then, how does Christianity's role, in motivating people to criminalize abortion, not make you re-evaluate your view of Christianity?

Because surprise, surprise, people can support some things and not others.

Like loving pizza but hating buffalo chicken pizza.

Almost nothing in the world, especially people, can be looked at in terms of 100% supporting anything, 100% good or evil, et cetera.

This is more analogous to noticing the pizzeria gave you food poisoning almost every time you went in there, with reason to believe you're not the only one, and continuing to praise that same pizzeria.

Christianity is contaminated from the start by its own holy book's contradictions. It sets a precedent for eroding rational thought that just goes downhill from there.

If we were paying women to purposefully get pregnant to abort the embryo in order to harvest the stem cells, then no way José, I am completely against that sort of behavior.

Abortions are used for fetal tissue research, not embryonic stem cell research. Spreading the misconception that it comes from aborted fetuses... might cause people to oppose embryonic stem cell research who wouldn't otherwise.

However, the closest thing to the embryonic equivalent of what you describe would be cloning embryos in a lab to harvest the stem cells in circumstances where in-vitro fertilizations do not produce enough. Do you have a problem with that process?

. . .

EDIT: At the risk of sounding nosy... Kat, what made you think embryonic stem cells came from aborted fetuses?

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

First of all, I'm not sure why you need to bring up the US all of the sudden in an international forum on an international topic.

I'm not as familiar with the politics nor languagues of Latin America.

But on an English-speaking webforum, a disproportionate slice of the audience is going to consist of people from countries more similar to the USA than to Latin America, and as such, the effects of Christianity in the former are more indicative of the effects of Christianity in the home countries of this webforum's target audience.

If you have reason to believe Christianity incentivizes progressiveness in Latin America, and that there's something there that can be used to wrest it from the religious right's hands in the USA, feel free to specify it. Otherwise, it's not particularly compelling.

[A m e n r i a]

First of all, I'm not sure why you need to bring up the US all of the sudden in an international forum on an international topic.

I'm not as familiar with the politics nor languagues of Latin America.

But on an English-speaking webforum, a disproportionate slice of the audience is going to consist of people from countries more similar to the USA than to Latin America, and as such, the effects of Christianity in the former are more indicative of the effects of Christianity in the home countries of this webforum's target audience.

If you have reason to believe Christianity incentivizes progressiveness in Latin America, and that there's something there that can be used to wrest it from the religious right's hands in the USA, feel free to specify it. Otherwise, it's not particularly compelling.

Latin American countries are mostly Christian too, aren't they? I'm not just talking about them though.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

I'm not as familiar with the politics nor languagues of Latin America.

But on an English-speaking webforum, a disproportionate slice of the audience is going to consist of people from countries more similar to the USA than to Latin America, and as such, the effects of Christianity in the former are more indicative of the effects of Christianity in the home countries of this webforum's target audience.

If you have reason to believe Christianity incentivizes progressiveness in Latin America, and that there's something there that can be used to wrest it from the religious right's hands in the USA, feel free to specify it. Otherwise, it's not particularly compelling.

Latin American countries are mostly Christian too, aren't they? I'm not just talking about them though.

That's the point. I'm referring to correlation both within and between countries, in terms of what religion correlates with. Christianity is at its most popular in Europe, North America, and Latin America. Comparing Europe and North America, the former is more progressive and less religious; I doubt that's coincidence. Comparing regions within each of the former two categories, the most progressive regions tend to be less religious. Latin America in particular is a place I'm less familiar with.

[A m e n r i a]

Latin American countries are mostly Christian too, aren't they? I'm not just talking about them though.

That's the point. I'm referring to correlation both within and between countries, in terms of what religion correlates with. Christianity is at its most popular in Europe, North America, and Latin America. Comparing Europe and North America, the former is more progressive and less religious; I doubt that's coincidence. Comparing regions within each of the former two categories, the most progressive regions tend to be less religious. Latin America in particular is a place I'm less familiar with.

Fair.

[Xmara]

Because surprise, surprise, people can support some things and not others.

Like loving pizza but hating buffalo chicken pizza.

Almost nothing in the world, especially people, can be looked at in terms of 100% supporting anything, 100% good or evil, et cetera.

This is more analogous to noticing the pizzeria gave you food poisoning almost every time you went in there, with reason to believe you're not the only one, and continuing to praise that same pizzeria.

What?

You seem to be under the false impression that Christians are part of some kind of hive mind. Many of us support both religion and science. Deal with it.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

This is more analogous to noticing the pizzeria gave you food poisoning almost every time you went in there, with reason to believe you're not the only one, and continuing to praise that same pizzeria.

What?

You seem to be under the false impression that Christians are part of some kind of hive mind. Many of us support both religion and science. Deal with it.

And when liberal Christians legitimize Christianity's continued prominence, its overall effects; as demonstrated by which states vote for whom; are prolonged.

Neither "Christianity causes votes for Trump" nor "whatever causes people to support Christianity causes people to vote for Trump" reflects well on Christianity.

[Greater Catarapania]

Latin American countries are mostly Christian too, aren't they? I'm not just talking about them though.

That's the point. I'm referring to correlation both within and between countries, in terms of what religion correlates with. Christianity is at its most popular in Europe, North America, and Latin America. Comparing Europe and North America, the former is more progressive and less religious; I doubt that's coincidence. Comparing regions within each of the former two categories, the most progressive regions tend to be less religious. Latin America in particular is a place I'm less familiar with.

Why should we think progressivism is inherently good? Why shouldn't we push for Europe to become less progressive and more religious?

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

That's the point. I'm referring to correlation both within and between countries, in terms of what religion correlates with. Christianity is at its most popular in Europe, North America, and Latin America. Comparing Europe and North America, the former is more progressive and less religious; I doubt that's coincidence. Comparing regions within each of the former two categories, the most progressive regions tend to be less religious. Latin America in particular is a place I'm less familiar with.

Why should we think progressivism is inherently good? Why shouldn't we push for Europe to become less progressive and more religious?

There's a variety of reasons I could get into right now, but I see no need to do so. The point I applied specifically to ESCR in the OP...

If you're against embryonic stem cell research... I get it. I don't agree with you, but I get it. And I wish to put that aside until stem cell as an issue in and of itself is the central issue of another thread, and/or it comes up in mainstream politics again... whichever comes first.

...applies for the purposes of this thread to progressivism vs. conservatism more generally.

[Salus Maior]

First of all, I'm not sure why you need to bring up the US all of the sudden in an international forum on an international topic. Second of all, you mentioned religion and Christianity, who oppose biological meddling,which doesn't make sense, as most Christians are liberals who support all sorts of scientific schenanigans, savoury or not.

As a believer, I'll give my two cents though. I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. More hard-line Muslims, especially in the far-right of the political spectrum, think that changing what you are is an act of ungratefulness and should be banned. I disagree. I'm sure God would understand if we wanted to beocme the best versions of ourselves.

I don't think you understand the Christian position at all.

Our issue with embryonic stem cell research is that it necessitates the termination of a conceived person. Other forms of stem cell research that don't carry the same ethical baggage are fine (and I understand that stem cells donated by adults are more useful anyway). It's not a matter of "changing ourselves".

And firstly, most liberals, particularly high profile ones, aren't Christian in a meaningful sense.

[Salus Maior]

What?

You seem to be under the false impression that Christians are part of some kind of hive mind. Many of us support both religion and science. Deal with it.

And when liberal Christians legitimize Christianity's continued prominence, its overall effects; as demonstrated by which states vote for whom; are prolonged.

Neither "Christianity causes votes for Trump" nor "whatever causes people to support Christianity causes people to vote for Trump" reflects well on Christianity.

It's more that our absolutely garbage political system forces certain people with particular principles to vote for Trump (even though he doesn't take it seriously anyway).

Nobody I know was thrilled to vote for Trump.

[Greater Catarapania]

Why should we think progressivism is inherently good? Why shouldn't we push for Europe to become less progressive and more religious?

There's a variety of reasons I could get into right now, but I see no need to do so. The point I applied specifically to ESCR in the OP...

If you're against embryonic stem cell research... I get it. I don't agree with you, but I get it. And I wish to put that aside until stem cell as an issue in and of itself is the central issue of another thread, and/or it comes up in mainstream politics again... whichever comes first.

...applies for the purposes of this thread to progressivism vs. conservatism more generally.

And your point makes absolutely no sense. "Let's talk about Christian opposition to ESCR, but not talk about why they oppose ESCR" is a recipe for an extremely one-sided discussion. Likewise, pointing out that religion to some degree decreases progressivism, without discussing whether or not progressivism is even a good thing in the first place, is less a way to discredit religion, and more a way to pander to like minds.

But hey, if you don't want to actually advance the debate, I can leave. Have fun impressing your fellow leftists. Because that's about all you'll be doing if you abide by the terms you've set.

[Esternial]

Christians (or any religious group) don't have a homogenous ideology. How people fill in their own religious beliefs is tied together with their personality. Like reading any book, different people can interpret different things from the Bible. I used to be Catholic and I only learnt lessons of love and tolerance from the Bible - it's hard to understand how some take away so much intolerance.

[Salus Maior]

Christians (or any religious group) don't have a homogenous ideology. How people fill in their own religious beliefs is tied together with their personality. Like reading any book, different people can interpret different things from the Bible. I used to be Catholic and I only learnt lessons of love and tolerance from the Bible - it's hard to understand how some take away so much intolerance.

The problem here being taking the Bible as its own authority to be interpreted out of its context.

[Elizno]

Stem-cell-research could not break pro-Christian values if that is done well and based on some ethical rules.
Stem cells are predominant in embryos (yes, true, but not only that) but these could be replicated. Also there are cases when stem cells are wasted in medicine instead of being valued.
I'm not sure if I'm right, but a case could be at birth related to the placenta. Many of the placental stem cells were wasted after births. Another case could be ... I forgot.
Anyway, Christian values are about the respect and value of life, especially a person's life. There it matters when an unborn child becomes a real fetus after his/her conception. In just few weeks or in just a month a fetus comes to exist with almost all the basic organs (heart, brain). This is also why it's possible to clone beings in a shorter time.

[Xmara]

Christians (or any religious group) don't have a homogenous ideology. How people fill in their own religious beliefs is tied together with their personality. Like reading any book, different people can interpret different things from the Bible. I used to be Catholic and I only learnt lessons of love and tolerance from the Bible - it's hard to understand how some take away so much intolerance.

The problem here being taking the Bible as its own authority to be interpreted out of its context.

The problem here also being that the OP seems to think Christians are a monolith rather than 2 billion+ people, each with their own social, political, and economic views.