NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
220
38%
Eastern Orthodox
41
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
3
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
31
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
61
11%
Methodist
11
2%
Baptist
54
9%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
46
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
25
4%
Other Christian
80
14%
 
Total votes : 572

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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:33 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Okay, will you also consider my Master's degree in Theology? You're not wrong that Dogma's can never be changed, but there's more nuance to that. Dogmas cannot change because they are infallible, not the other way around. Christ rising again on the 3rd day, that is an example of dogma, directly revealed from scrpipture. Doctrines can be considered infallible, without ascending the level of Dogma, depending on the subject matter.

2353 "Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young"


Note the word grave there. That is Catholic speak for a matter of serious moral import. The teachings on Sexuality, are not the same as say, eating fish on Fridays during lent, or do animals go to heaven. Sexuality is a serious moral issue, where the doctrines of the Church draw moral lines. Fornication, is something that the Church hasn't merely prohibited, but declared to be morally wrong. A person who commits these acts, commits a mortal sin, and must go to confession and seek reconciliation. A doctrine such as this cannot change, because to change it would be to change the moral ordination of the Church.

Now, doctrines can develop, in the same vein as the Capital Punishment doctrine did. But it can not develop in such a manner that the core moral theologies they are founded upon become changed. In terms of Capital Punishment, we are prohibited from committing murder, i.e, Killing without just cause or authority. Capital Punishment, was always permitted as having both those conditions. However, with the issue of false convictions, and the ability for the state to use CP erroneously, the Church as decreed these conditions cannot be satisfied, and thus CP cannot be considered permisable any more. The core moral teachings did not change, only our knowledge of our inadequate ability to satisfy them has.



That's the problem, the teachings on sexuality aren't merely tradition.

Fine develop than, if that makes more sense. :roll:


It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:38 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Fine develop than, if that makes more sense. :roll:


It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....
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I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
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Turelisa-
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Ex-Nation

Postby Turelisa- » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:47 pm

Snip
Last edited by Turelisa- on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sundiata
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:48 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church.

Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church? Think about it.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:48 pm

Turelisa- wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Tbh this is not the first time that Turelisa has advocated that the likes of LGBT people be killed, so it's no surprise.


I'm reporting the italicised quote above as trolling.
New Californian Republic is blatantly lying, as I have never advocated 'LGBT people be killed' either in this thread or in any other, and the fact that the player has failed to prove his accusation with a direct quote to the previous post(s) which he refers to to try and corrobate his false accusation achieves nothing but to corrobate my case against him.

Then you should probably post your report in moderation instead of announcing that you're reporting someone you haven't reported.
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Rosmana
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Founded: Apr 08, 2020
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:49 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church. Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church?

No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years, like I said it is about interpeation, and that is not easy.
Last edited by Rosmana on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OOC: Rosmana does not fully represent all my RL beliefs.
I have never fired a gun, ever.
I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
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My country is like a Star Wars Imperial TIE fighter, cheap, simple, basic, mass produced, but very effective.

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:50 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Rosmana
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Founded: Apr 08, 2020
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:52 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around. :)
Last edited by Rosmana on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OOC: Rosmana does not fully represent all my RL beliefs.
I have never fired a gun, ever.
I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
Kirkman-Shore 2024.
My country is like a Star Wars Imperial TIE fighter, cheap, simple, basic, mass produced, but very effective.

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Sundiata
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Founded: Sep 27, 2019
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church. Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church?

No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years.

St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies and sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gender: Male
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"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years.

St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies or sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.

See?, Interpetation.... :)
OOC: Rosmana does not fully represent all my RL beliefs.
I have never fired a gun, ever.
I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
Kirkman-Shore 2024.
My country is like a Star Wars Imperial TIE fighter, cheap, simple, basic, mass produced, but very effective.

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:54 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around. :)


Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:57 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies or sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.

See?, Interpetation.... :)

But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:01 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around. :)


Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.


Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:See?, Interpetation.... :)

But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.

Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless. :)
Last edited by Rosmana on Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I have never fired a gun, ever.
I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:02 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.


Sundiata wrote:But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.

Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless. :)

Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary! :lol:
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:04 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.



Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless. :)

Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary! :lol:

My moms fish soup is though. :D
OOC: Rosmana does not fully represent all my RL beliefs.
I have never fired a gun, ever.
I looked up the meaning of the word "Carpetbagger", and I thought: Donald Trump.
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My country is like a Star Wars Imperial TIE fighter, cheap, simple, basic, mass produced, but very effective.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:06 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary! :lol:

My moms fish soup is though. :D


Ha! Don't make me make this my signature. :lol:

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:The problem is not sexuality. Before we even get into a conversation about the sinfulness of sex before marriage, it's important to understand what sin is and who it comes from.

My hatred of Satan isn't emotional or arbitrary. I assure you, the bastard deserves every bit of vitriol.

This is pointless, have a good day....

You scare me.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:10 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.


Sure. But, again. Context. Interpretation is only correct in so much that you try to uncover the authors meaning, not try to find your own meaning.

And St. Paul was quite explicit beyond this:

7: 1Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.


7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


St. Paul spoke at length about sexual morality, and no matter which way you slice it the moral teaching was clear. Sex is only to be within the confines of Marriage, a marriage between one man and one woman. Simply being in love, isn't enough.

He that abstains from marriage, is to abstain from sex like St. Paul.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:31 pm

Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:36 pm

The New California Republic wrote:Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.


He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:06 pm

Sundiata wrote:How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.


Are you calling me little? :eyebrow:

:hug:
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:28 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Sundiata wrote:How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.


Are you calling me little? :eyebrow:

:hug:

:hug:

Man, I sometimes wish we could meet Jesus in the flesh. That would be so awesome! I still fan-boy over Jesus like I did when I was a boy. Jesus is so fantastic to read about.

Jesus did so many awesome things: his miracles, his rhetorical skill, his complete resistance to evil. Jesus' forgiveness of everyone no matter how great their sin is eternally going to resonate with people.

It is unfortunate that we have to wait until heaven to fully know Jesus but when that time comes it's going to be awesome just to see his face. There's going to come a time when we're no longer "alone" with Jesus anymore. Jesus is also an easy person of the trinity to have affection for because of the suffering that Jesus did on our behalf.

Jesus won't ever let us go, even in our moments of great anxiety. In those moments where you're not yourself, Jesus has a way becoming everything. Jesus is the most beautiful ideal in a world that lets us down sometimes. Our pains can be tough in light of that because we're designed to always be with Jesus.

It's going to be great to finally know the one who loves us all. Jesus is perfection and Jesus will never let you down.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:17 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:42 pm

The New California Republic wrote:Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.

That...is disturbing. But thank you for letting us know.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:56 pm

Sundiata wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.


He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.


I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish. :unsure:
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:08 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Sundiata wrote:
He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.


I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish. :unsure:

I already addressed the comments about killing homosexuals. I didn't fail.
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Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:10 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish. :unsure:

I already addressed the comments about killing homosexuals. I didn't fail.


Alrighty then, my bad. Must've missed it.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party

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