Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Tarsonis]

Okay, will you also consider my Master's degree in Theology? You're not wrong that Dogma's can never be changed, but there's more nuance to that. Dogmas cannot change because they are infallible, not the other way around. Christ rising again on the 3rd day, that is an example of dogma, directly revealed from scrpipture. Doctrines can be considered infallible, without ascending the level of Dogma, depending on the subject matter.

2353 "Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young"


Note the word grave there. That is Catholic speak for a matter of serious moral import. The teachings on Sexuality, are not the same as say, eating fish on Fridays during lent, or do animals go to heaven. Sexuality is a serious moral issue, where the doctrines of the Church draw moral lines. Fornication, is something that the Church hasn't merely prohibited, but declared to be morally wrong. A person who commits these acts, commits a mortal sin, and must go to confession and seek reconciliation. A doctrine such as this cannot change, because to change it would be to change the moral ordination of the Church.

Now, doctrines can develop, in the same vein as the Capital Punishment doctrine did. But it can not develop in such a manner that the core moral theologies they are founded upon become changed. In terms of Capital Punishment, we are prohibited from committing murder, i.e, Killing without just cause or authority. Capital Punishment, was always permitted as having both those conditions. However, with the issue of false convictions, and the ability for the state to use CP erroneously, the Church as decreed these conditions cannot be satisfied, and thus CP cannot be considered permisable any more. The core moral teachings did not change, only our knowledge of our inadequate ability to satisfy them has.



That's the problem, the teachings on sexuality aren't merely tradition.

Fine develop than, if that makes more sense.

It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

[Rosmana]

Fine develop than, if that makes more sense.

It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

[Turelisa-]

Snip

[Sundiata]

It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church.

Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church? Think about it.

[Punished UMN]

Tbh this is not the first time that Turelisa has advocated that the likes of LGBT people be killed, so it's no surprise.

I'm reporting the italicised quote above as trolling.
New Californian Republic is blatantly lying, as I have never advocated 'LGBT people be killed' either in this thread or in any other, and the fact that the player has failed to prove his accusation with a direct quote to the previous post(s) which he refers to to try and corrobate his false accusation achieves nothing but to corrobate my case against him.

Then you should probably post your report in moderation instead of announcing that you're reporting someone you haven't reported.

[Rosmana]

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church. Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church?

No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years, like I said it is about interpeation, and that is not easy.

[Tarsonis]

It doesn't because what you're asking for isn't a development, it's a change. You're asking the Church to declare its moral teachings that it has espoused in its entirety, morals based in scripture, to be changed. Not developed.

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

[Rosmana]

Well scripture is about interpretation, I mean St. Paul said women can never speak in Church, and now they are lectors, so that logic holds no water....

Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around.

[Sundiata]

That doesn't literally mean that women can't ever say a single word in church. Before I tell you what St. Paul means, what do you think he means when he says that women can't speak in church?

No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years.

St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies and sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.

[Rosmana]

No idea, I have not prayed on the matter to be honest, that takes years.

St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies or sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.

See?, Interpetation....

[Tarsonis]

Begging you're pardon, but this is a bit of a reach.

1 Timothy 2 is about the ordination of presbyters, and teaching from said authority. Not a general prohibition on speaking. Lectors don't teach they read, and women have been integral teachers outside the office of the priesthood. Hell, I took one of them for my Saint's name.

There might be room for debate on the language used, especially in the KJV verses the actual Greek.

But that's much different from a straight forward proclamation such as

"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around.

Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

[Sundiata]

St. Paul is essentially saying that women can't assume the role of a priest, for example, giving homilies or sermons. He's not telling women to sit down and shut up at all times.

See?, Interpetation....

But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.

[Rosmana]

Yes, and?, that can also mean that you should not cheat on your wife/husband, or sleeping around.

Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.

See?, Interpetation....

But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.

Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless.

[Sundiata]

Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.

But my subjective interpretation is not equal to the magesterium of the Catholic Church. It's not a matter of arbitrary preference.

Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless.

Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary!

[Rosmana]

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.



Which is why I am saying my idea on sexuality itself is an opinion, rather than a fact, I just felt compelled to say it.

I have to go to bed now, it is getting late, and I have Church tommorow.

Good night, and God Bless.

Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary!

My moms fish soup is though.

[Sundiata]

Have a good evening! See? I'm not scary!

My moms fish soup is though.

Ha! Don't make me make this my signature.

The problem is not sexuality. Before we even get into a conversation about the sinfulness of sex before marriage, it's important to understand what sin is and who it comes from.

My hatred of Satan isn't emotional or arbitrary. I assure you, the bastard deserves every bit of vitriol.

This is pointless, have a good day....

You scare me.

[Tarsonis]

Sure, that's the adulterous. "Sexually immoral" there is the Greek word πόρνος, which means fornicator. Can also mean a prostitute but given the context here, it's the former.

And in that case there is also no love involved, which is my point.

Sure. But, again. Context. Interpretation is only correct in so much that you try to uncover the authors meaning, not try to find your own meaning.

And St. Paul was quite explicit beyond this:

7: 1Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.


7:8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


St. Paul spoke at length about sexual morality, and no matter which way you slice it the moral teaching was clear. Sex is only to be within the confines of Marriage, a marriage between one man and one woman. Simply being in love, isn't enough.

He that abstains from marriage, is to abstain from sex like St. Paul.

[The New California Republic]

Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.

[Sundiata]

Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.

He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.

[The Blaatschapen]

How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.

Are you calling me little?

[Sundiata]

How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.

Are you calling me little?

Man, I sometimes wish we could meet Jesus in the flesh. That would be so awesome! I still fan-boy over Jesus like I did when I was a boy. Jesus is so fantastic to read about.

Jesus did so many awesome things: his miracles, his rhetorical skill, his complete resistance to evil. Jesus' forgiveness of everyone no matter how great their sin is eternally going to resonate with people.

It is unfortunate that we have to wait until heaven to fully know Jesus but when that time comes it's going to be awesome just to see his face. There's going to come a time when we're no longer "alone" with Jesus anymore. Jesus is also an easy person of the trinity to have affection for because of the suffering that Jesus did on our behalf.

Jesus won't ever let us go, even in our moments of great anxiety. In those moments where you're not yourself, Jesus has a way becoming everything. Jesus is the most beautiful ideal in a world that lets us down sometimes. Our pains can be tough in light of that because we're designed to always be with Jesus.

It's going to be great to finally know the one who loves us all. Jesus is perfection and Jesus will never let you down.

[Luminesa]

Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.

That...is disturbing. But thank you for letting us know.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Just a quick heads up since Turelisa posted here: he was declared DOS a few minutes ago for using a puppet to post porn (so much for all that holier-than-thou nonsense that he was engaging in!). Just flagging it up here as he seemed to post fairly regularly here, so go and tell the Mods if you are sus that he's posting here again under an alt.

He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.

I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish.

[Sundiata]

He'll be in our prayers. Pornography-use is an unfortunate sin to struggle with but it's a fitting segue back to the realm of discussion. We were previously discussing the sin of lust and the sexual sins that encompass it.

Pornography is one of Satan's many ugly tools, another reason to hate Satan, frankly. The bastard (Satan) won't quit until he drags every one of us down with him.

Every prayer, every act of penance, is a kick to Satan's stupid face.

I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish.

I already addressed the comments about killing homosexuals. I didn't fail.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I mean I'd be more worried about him calling for the death of people who he sees as "faithless" than for him watching porn, myself.

But, uh, sure. Glad you have your priorities straight there. Pray for the porno consumption and not the murder fetish.

I already addressed the comments about killing homosexuals. I didn't fail.

Alrighty then, my bad. Must've missed it.