Latin America General : Corona Carnaval

[Great Algerstonia]

why do you hate the rule of law

Let me ask you this.

What makes for functional, trusted, and legitimate laws, procedures, and institutions? If the justice system treats two different classes of people differently in the same situations and warps and twists laws in an arbitrary way to preserve the power of the extant regime, even against minor reversals, in clear contravention to both the popular will and any facade of impartiality or justice, is that society not in some sense lawless when push comes to shove?

>Implying any of this is bad

When I become a millionaire I know where I am moving

[Fahran]

>Implying any of this is bad

I wasn't insinuating that it was necessarily bad. I was describing it accurately as a disruption of the laws, procedures, and institutions that have often been aspirational in Latin America since the collapse of the older dictatorial regimes. It's not really rule of law when the "law" in question looks arbitrary to most people aside from serving to give the government an outcome it wants.

When I become a millionaire I know where I am moving

You might be one of the few foreign millionaires moving to Venezuela. That'll be interesting. I wish you luck in establishing a personalist political network, anon.

[San Lumen]

Im confused how is Castro eligible to be President of Honduras? One of the requirements is Not be the spouse or relative of the President or any military leader or does that only apply to the current President and not a former one?

[Shrillland]

Im confused how is Castro eligible to be President of Honduras? One of the requirements is Not be the spouse or relative of the President or any military leader or does that only apply to the current President and not a former one?

Yeah, that just means the sitting president.

[Kowani]

Former Argentine President Mauricio Macri indicted on charges of espionage, accused of spying on the families of the 44 victims of the 2017 ARA San Juan submarine sinking

[Kilobugya]

why do you hate the rule of law

They barred the top vote getting candidate in the election. That's not respected the rule of law or democracy.

That depends why he is banned, and if the accusation or based or not. Would you oppose Trump being barred to run if found guilty of corruption, or of incitating sedition ? I've no idea on the precise case involved there in Venezuela, what the accusations are and if they are credible, but democracy implies rule of law, and criminals can be barred from running even if popular. If the accusations are true of course, which again I don't know in this case.

[Shrillland]

Former Argentine President Mauricio Macri indicted on charges of espionage, accused of spying on the families of the 44 victims of the 2017 ARA San Juan submarine sinking

Talk about bad timing. His party just won the Midterms, and he gets arrested.

[Fahran]

That depends why he is banned, and if the accusation or based or not. Would you oppose Trump being barred to run if found guilty of corruption, or of incitating sedition ? I've no idea on the precise case involved there in Venezuela, what the accusations are and if they are credible, but democracy implies rule of law, and criminals can be barred from running even if popular. If the accusations are true of course, which again I don't know in this case.

You do not need to defend every questionable, anti-American, left-wing government simply because they're left-wing and anti-American. Sometimes, a spade is still a spade, even if it's bedazzled.

But, to answer your question, Freddy Superlano, along with a significant portion of the opposition, supported the National Assembly's bid to declare Maduro's presidency illegitimate and unconstitutional in 2019. Given multiple opposition leaders, including Lopez, had been incarcerated on what is widely considered internationally to be politically motivated charges, following the 2014 protests, which were mostly peaceful, against the government and that free and fair elections had not been held in over a decade... I'll let you draw your own conclusion about the state of democracy in Venezuela.

Functionally though, this does serve to halt an opposition victory in a region where Chavez and his family have historically held power. Additionally, the move to declare Superlano banned from participating in elections came amid speculation that he had won or would win the election in question. It looks pretty much exactly as international observors are describing it.

[Kilobugya]

But, to answer your question, Freddy Superlano, along with a significant portion of the opposition, supported the National Assembly's bid to declare Maduro's presidency illegitimate and unconstitutional in 2019.

And that bid was highly illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate, like it would have been for the House to stop recognizing Trump as president in 2018. The "National Assembly" itself was actually illegal and illegitimate since it seated a couple of MPs whose elections have been invalidated by the highest courts for irregularities.

You may dislike Maduro as much as you want - but from the point of view of law and Constitution, he was in his right, and it's the opposition that didn't respect anything but violence and attempts and to illegally remove him (which is nothing new, it's the same ones who tried a coup against Chávez in 2002, sabotage in 2003, several murder attempts against Maduro, ...).

[Fahran]

And that bid was highly illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate, like it would have been for the House to stop recognizing Trump as president in 2018. The "National Assembly" itself was actually illegal and illegitimate since it seated a couple of MPs whose elections have been invalidated by the highest courts for irregularities.

Most political leadership in Latin America, including a lot of "pinktide" leaders, disagreed with this perspective. This is largely a case of Venezuelan socialists using their domination of both the judiciary and the military post-Chavez to repeatedly disrupt the procedures associated with democracy and popular sovereignty, especially given the National Assembly had a clear mandate to rule in 2014.

You may dislike Maduro as much as you want - but from the point of view of law and Constitution, he was in his right, and it's the opposition that didn't respect anything but violence and attempts and to illegally remove him (which is nothing new, it's the same ones who tried a coup against Chávez in 2002, sabotage in 2003, several murder attempts against Maduro, ...).

It's not really a matter of disliking Maduro, though I do dislike him. It's pointing out that his regime has repeatedly subverted constitutions and laws, repeatedly disrupted elections and normal democratic processes, repeatedly imprisoned and tortured political opponents - to the point that even Chile's Jadue had to offer a taciturn condemnation of torture, and has given Ortega a run for his money when it comes to being the most plainly despotic leader in Latin America. Do you know how badly you have to mess up to get Latin Americans to quietly acknowledge that maybe Uncle Sam is right about your government?

But, again, I think this largely serves to illustrate that the "democratic" part of your socialism is negotiable and largely superfluous. You're spending a lot of time defending socialists who aren't democratic, who seem to remain fat and wealthy even as others starve, and who can't actually run a command economy properly. At least Ortega was managing a decent economy before 2018. Maduro has never managed a good economy and he inherited an already mismanaged economy from Chavez.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

And that bid was highly illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate, like it would have been for the House to stop recognizing Trump as president in 2018. The "National Assembly" itself was actually illegal and illegitimate since it seated a couple of MPs whose elections have been invalidated by the highest courts for irregularities.

Most political leadership in Latin America, including a lot of "pinktide" leaders, disagreed with this perspective. This is largely a case of Venezuelan socialists using their domination of both the judiciary and the military post-Chavez to repeatedly disrupt the procedures associated with democracy and popular sovereignty, especially given the National Assembly had a clear mandate to rule in 2014.

You may dislike Maduro as much as you want - but from the point of view of law and Constitution, he was in his right, and it's the opposition that didn't respect anything but violence and attempts and to illegally remove him (which is nothing new, it's the same ones who tried a coup against Chávez in 2002, sabotage in 2003, several murder attempts against Maduro, ...).

It's not really a matter of disliking Maduro, though I do dislike him. It's pointing out that his regime has repeatedly subverted constitutions and laws, repeatedly disrupted elections and normal democratic processes, repeatedly imprisoned and tortured political opponents - to the point that even Chile's Jadue had to offer a taciturn condemnation of torture, and has given Ortega a run for his money when it comes to being the most plainly despotic leader in Latin America. Do you know how badly you have to mess up to get Latin Americans to quietly acknowledge that maybe Uncle Sam is right about your government?

But, again, I think this largely serves to illustrate that the "democratic" part of your socialism is negotiable and largely superfluous. You're spending a lot of time defending socialists who aren't democratic, who seem to remain fat and wealthy even as others starve, and who can't actually run a command economy properly. At least Ortega was managing a decent economy before 2018. Maduro has never managed a good economy and he inherited an already mismanaged economy from Chavez.

The "socialist" part is also debatable given the fact that even under the Bolivarian Revolution, the private sector formed a huge part of Venezuela's economy, even under Chávez and Maduro, and the only tangible leftist thing they did was to enact several social welfare campaigns and worker's rights reforms while mostly keeping the petroleum-dominated status quo intact. And his "defense" of Venezuela is largely against an attempted invasion by the US et al, from what I can tell, which, as countless such adventuring around the globe showed us, particularly in Iraq, often ends up creating a massive calamity.

[Fahran]

The "socialist" part is also debatable given the fact that even under the Bolivarian Revolution, the private sector formed a huge part of Venezuela's economy, even under Chávez and Maduro, and the only tangible leftist thing they did was to enact several social welfare campaigns and worker's rights reforms while mostly keeping the petroleum-dominated status quo intact.

I don't disagree. This is true of Ortega's Nicaragua and broader left-wing movements in Latin America as well.

And his "defense" of Venezuela is largely against an attempted invasion by the US et al, from what I can tell, which, as countless such adventuring around the globe showed us, particularly in Iraq, often ends up creating a massive calamity.

It wasn't an attempted invasion by the US. The National Assembly had gained a clear mandate by 2014 and their claim of Maduro's illegitimacy received quiet support throughout Latin America, which, on the whole, has no genuine interest in seeing American influence expand. The three exceptions were Cuba (which had become increasingly reliant on economic and political collaboration with Venezuela), Bolivia, and Nicaragua (which were both ideologically and geopolitically aligned with Venezuela and Cuba). You'll note that following the failure of the 2014 demonstrations and the more recent 2018 demonstrations that the US has not supported a serious attempt to invade Venezuela at any point. At best, we can allege that the United States has provided political and economic support to the opposition - but that claim is true of Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, and Ecuador as well. As well as every country in Europe except Russia and Belarus.

[Kowani]

In Trinidad and Tobago, the Progressive Democratic Patriots are projected to win elections in the Tobago House of Assembly, and the People National Movement loses the majority they've held in the Tobago House of Assembly for the past 18 years

the Vice Chairman of the People National Movement's Tobago Council, Deon Isaac, has conceded on behalf of the party

[Kowani]

In Trinidad and Tobago, the Progressive Democratic Patriots are projected to win elections in the Tobago House of Assembly, and the People National Movement loses the majority they've held in the Tobago House of Assembly for the past 18 years

the Vice Chairman of the People National Movement's Tobago Council, Deon Isaac, has conceded on behalf of the party

Final seat total: 12-3

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

The "socialist" part is also debatable given the fact that even under the Bolivarian Revolution, the private sector formed a huge part of Venezuela's economy, even under Chávez and Maduro, and the only tangible leftist thing they did was to enact several social welfare campaigns and worker's rights reforms while mostly keeping the petroleum-dominated status quo intact.

I don't disagree. This is true of Ortega's Nicaragua and broader left-wing movements in Latin America as well.

And his "defense" of Venezuela is largely against an attempted invasion by the US et al, from what I can tell, which, as countless such adventuring around the globe showed us, particularly in Iraq, often ends up creating a massive calamity.

It wasn't an attempted invasion by the US. The National Assembly had gained a clear mandate by 2014 and their claim of Maduro's illegitimacy received quiet support throughout Latin America, which, on the whole, has no genuine interest in seeing American influence expand. The three exceptions were Cuba (which had become increasingly reliant on economic and political collaboration with Venezuela), Bolivia, and Nicaragua (which were both ideologically and geopolitically aligned with Venezuela and Cuba). You'll note that following the failure of the 2014 demonstrations and the more recent 2018 demonstrations that the US has not supported a serious attempt to invade Venezuela at any point. At best, we can allege that the United States has provided political and economic support to the opposition - but that claim is true of Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, and Ecuador as well. As well as every country in Europe except Russia and Belarus.

I was referring to the prospect of a military invasion of Venezuela however, as advocated by certain hawks within the US government, which is what he warned against in his posts. It should be left to the people of Venezuela to decide their country's future and Maduro's fate, and no foreign power should impede on their sovereignty.

[San Lumen]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodi ... 021-12-06/

President of Peru facing likely impeachment

[Shrillland]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/perus-castillo-plays-whack-a-mole-with-crises-impeachment-threat-looms-2021-12-06/

President of Peru facing likely impeachment

Already? Peru seems to impeach presidents every 10 minutes.

[Kowani]

Chile passes legislation to legalize same-sex marriage

It’s a special day for same-sex couples in Chile. Today their country becomes the 31st in the world to adopt marriage equality—and by a wide legislative margin in both the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and the Senate.

The country’s new law undoes existing legal discrimination against same-sex couples in parentage, joint adoption, and assisted reproductive technology, among others. It also scraps the requirement that married transgender people divorce if they want to have their gender legally recognized.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Chile passes legislation to legalize same-sex marriage

It’s a special day for same-sex couples in Chile. Today their country becomes the 31st in the world to adopt marriage equality—and by a wide legislative margin in both the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and the Senate.

The country’s new law undoes existing legal discrimination against same-sex couples in parentage, joint adoption, and assisted reproductive technology, among others. It also scraps the requirement that married transgender people divorce if they want to have their gender legally recognized.

And it comes just as election day draws closer and closer.... Think it will boost Gabriel's campaign now that one of his stances has already been vindicated?

[San Lumen]

Chile passes legislation to legalize same-sex marriage

It’s a special day for same-sex couples in Chile. Today their country becomes the 31st in the world to adopt marriage equality—and by a wide legislative margin in both the Chilean Chamber of Deputies and the Senate.

The country’s new law undoes existing legal discrimination against same-sex couples in parentage, joint adoption, and assisted reproductive technology, among others. It also scraps the requirement that married transgender people divorce if they want to have their gender legally recognized.

And it comes just as election day draws closer and closer.... Think it will boost Gabriel's campaign now that one of his stances has already been vindicated?

I suppose its plausible.

[Fahran]

I was referring to the prospect of a military invasion of Venezuela however, as advocated by certain hawks within the US government, which is what he warned against in his posts. It should be left to the people of Venezuela to decide their country's future and Maduro's fate, and no foreign power should impede on their sovereignty.

Oh, agreed.

[Kilobugya]

It should be left to the people of Venezuela to decide their country's future and Maduro's fate, and no foreign power should impede on their sovereignty.

I agree with that - and that includes ending all the economical sanctions and all the monetary support for the violent, coup-mongering "opposition" to Maduro.

[Diahon]

It should be left to the people of Venezuela to decide their country's future and Maduro's fate, and no foreign power should impede on their sovereignty.

I agree with that - and that includes ending all the economical sanctions and all the monetary support for the violent, coup-mongering "opposition" to Maduro.

no

[Kilobugya]

I agree with that - and that includes ending all the economical sanctions and all the monetary support for the violent, coup-mongering "opposition" to Maduro.

no

Then you're arguing for Washington and not the people of Venezuela to decide for the future of Venezuela, and that's unacceptable on all accounts. It's a violation of UN charter and of democracy itself. USA messing up in internal politics of Latin Amercia is a scourge on the sub-continent, as Simon Bolivar himself predicted two centuries ago "The United States appear to be destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of liberty".

[Diahon]

no

Then you're arguing for Washington and not the people of Venezuela to decide for the future of Venezuela, and that's unacceptable on all accounts. It's a violation of UN charter and of democracy itself. USA messing up in internal politics of Latin Amercia is a scourge on the sub-continent, as Simon Bolivar himself predicted two centuries ago "The United States appear to be destined by Providence to plague America with misery in the name of liberty".

i'm very well aware of the history of us meddling in latin america, but at this point? the understandable decision of the venezuelans to be free of that meddling has instead given them two tyrants in succession, one of them far worse than the other

given that the people of venezuela are otherwise too starved and too afraid to fight back against the latter tyrant and his fucking empanadas, funding political and if possible military opposition to maduro and the farce the bolivarian republic has become has to continue till he is overthrown and the republic replaced with a functioning, responsive democracy