UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

[Dooom35796821595]

Nursing staff here in Northern Ireland have went on strike today for equal pay with their colleagues in England, Scotland and Wales as well as to protest the understaffing and underfunding that has crippled NI's NHS over the last load of years.

Is that a Westminster issue, or a devolution issue?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Nursing staff here in Northern Ireland have went on strike today for equal pay with their colleagues in England, Scotland and Wales as well as to protest the understaffing and underfunding that has crippled NI's NHS over the last load of years.

Is that a Westminster issue, or a devolution issue?

Health and Social services are a devolved matter in Northern Ireland.

I edited the original comment as reading it again it looks like it could be partially misread:

Nursing staff here in Northern Ireland have went on strike today, one of the leading causes for this strike is a demand for equal pay with their colleagues in England, Scotland and Wales as well as to protest the understaffing and underfunding that has crippled NI's NHS over the last load of years.

[Ostroeuropa]

Idk mate. In principle yes, but the principle of equal pay is the important bit.
Personally i'd calculate the cost of living and set that aside, so if it costs 10,000 to live in northern Ireland and 15,000 to live in London, you look at the London nurse pay at say, 30,000 and say "Okay, so that leaves 15,000 in London after cost of living. So the northern irish pay will be 25,000.".

I can however see an argument for total pay equality in order to inject cash into poorer areas where cost of living is low, so I wouldn't push it too hard. Regardless, this should be the starting point of the conversation on pay equality imo, rather than just "lol no earn less".

[Shrillland]

Is that a Westminster issue, or a devolution issue?

Health and Social services are a devolved matter in Northern Ireland.

I edited the original comment as reading it again it looks like it could be partially misread:

Nursing staff here in Northern Ireland have went on strike today, one of the leading causes for this strike is a demand for equal pay with their colleagues in England, Scotland and Wales as well as to protest the understaffing and underfunding that has crippled NI's NHS over the last load of years.

Oh, dear. If it's an issue for Stormont, then you'll be waiting a very long time, I think.

[Ostroeuropa]

UK Fire fighters;
"Mate your houses will burn down if you vote for the Tories. We literally cannot cope."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will abolish MI5!"

Tory Ministers;
"The US will be able to charge more for NHS medicine under our agreement."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn is an anti-Semite."

OfCom;
"Your complaints about media bias against the conservative party are unfounded."

Tory Voters;
"Liberal elites are ruining the country."

Boris Johnson;
"People should pay to use the NHS, people will appreciate it more."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will get rid of our nukes."

Independent commission to investigate corruption;
"The conservative party primarily gives people seats in the house of lords based on how much money they pay the conservative party."

Tory Voters;
"Venezuela."

Boris Johnson;
"Well alright, the clear, costed, and well thought out plan I said I had for fixing social care doesn't exist yet and needs to be developed."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn likes the taste of Gerry Adams jam."

Conservative Party;
"Let's cause a bunch of fucking earthquakes in the UK so gas companies can make some more money."

Tory Voters;
"How are you going to pay for it?!"

UEFA;
"Boris, stop fuelling racism. You're ballsing up what is supposed to be the beautiful game. Fuck off and stop trying to talk about football, you're infesting it with your shite."

Tory Voters;
"PROUD TO BE BRITISH."

UN and multiple other organizations;
"140,000 are dead thanks to Tory austerity."

Tory Voters;
"Immigration is too high, if we don't sort it out we'll be outnumbered in our own country soon."

Multiple academics;
"We can prove that the media, owned by a a handful of billionaires, is anti-Labour and pro-conservative."

Tory Voters;
*latest garbage they were told by the media to convince them that they should vote for the destruction of the country*


*sigh*

[The Huskar Social Union]

UK Fire fighters;
"Mate your houses will burn down if you vote for the Tories. We literally cannot cope."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will abolish MI5!"

Tory Ministers;
"The US will be able to charge more for NHS medicine under our agreement."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn is an anti-Semite."

OfCom;
"Your complaints about media bias against the conservative party are unfounded."

Tory Voters;
"Liberal elites are ruining the country."

Boris Johnson;
"People should pay to use the NHS, people will appreciate it more."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will get rid of our nukes."

Independent commission to investigate corruption;
"The conservative party primarily gives people seats in the house of lords based on how much money they pay the conservative party."

Tory Voters;
"Venezuela."

Boris Johnson;
"Well alright, the clear, costed, and well thought out plan I said I had for fixing social care doesn't exist yet and needs to be developed."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn likes the taste of Gerry Adams jam."

Conservative Party;
"Let's cause a bunch of fucking earthquakes in the UK so gas companies can make some more money."

Tory Voters;
"How are you going to pay for it?!"

UEFA;
"Boris, stop fuelling racism. You're ballsing up what is supposed to be the beautiful game. Fuck off and stop trying to talk about football, you're infesting it with your shite."

Tory Voters;
"PROUD TO BE BRITISH."

UN and multiple other organizations;
"140,000 are dead thanks to Tory austerity."

Tory Voters;
"Immigration is too high, if we don't sort it out we'll be outnumbered in our own country soon."

Multiple academics;
"We can prove that the media, owned by a a handful of billionaires, is anti-Labour and pro-conservative."

Tory Voters;
*latest garbage they were told by the media to convince them that they should vote for the destruction of the country*


*sigh*

Ostro me old boy! Come and sit down, you know my pain, we are now best friends and we shall sit and be miserable together.

[Ostroeuropa]

UK Fire fighters;
"Mate your houses will burn down if you vote for the Tories. We literally cannot cope."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will abolish MI5!"

Tory Ministers;
"The US will be able to charge more for NHS medicine under our agreement."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn is an anti-Semite."

OfCom;
"Your complaints about media bias against the conservative party are unfounded."

Tory Voters;
"Liberal elites are ruining the country."

Boris Johnson;
"People should pay to use the NHS, people will appreciate it more."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn will get rid of our nukes."

Independent commission to investigate corruption;
"The conservative party primarily gives people seats in the house of lords based on how much money they pay the conservative party."

Tory Voters;
"Venezuela."

Boris Johnson;
"Well alright, the clear, costed, and well thought out plan I said I had for fixing social care doesn't exist yet and needs to be developed."

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn likes the taste of Gerry Adams jam."

Conservative Party;
"Let's cause a bunch of fucking earthquakes in the UK so gas companies can make some more money."

Tory Voters;
"How are you going to pay for it?!"

UEFA;
"Boris, stop fuelling racism. You're ballsing up what is supposed to be the beautiful game. Fuck off and stop trying to talk about football, you're infesting it with your shite."

Tory Voters;
"PROUD TO BE BRITISH."

UN and multiple other organizations;
"140,000 are dead thanks to Tory austerity."

Tory Voters;
"Immigration is too high, if we don't sort it out we'll be outnumbered in our own country soon."

Multiple academics;
"We can prove that the media, owned by a a handful of billionaires, is anti-Labour and pro-conservative."

Tory Voters;
*latest garbage they were told by the media to convince them that they should vote for the destruction of the country*


*sigh*

Ostro me old boy! Come and sit down, you know my pain, we are now best friends and we shall sit and be miserable together.

Over a third of the country knows it mate.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Last time Labour got anywhere near power they forced us into an illegal, devastating war (that Lib Dems opposed) and massively ramped up surveillance (that Lib Dems opposed) - it's not actually about the politicians suddenly changing but the context changing. When Lib Dems joined the coalition, deficits were at record highs and inflation was rising to 4%, everyone was shitting themselves that there was going to be some kind of monetary collapse and at that point all parties at the time (including Labour) had concluded that government finances were in a crisis and that the deficits needed to be reduced, they may have been wrong but that was the established 'very serious people' thought at the time (and people had for obvious reasons stopped trusting economists, many of whom were saying otherwise) - that's the context back then, it's not the same context now - even the Tories have ended their austerity for the time being. The reality is that all parties (even the Tories!) have moved left compared to where they were over the previous two or three decades - the whole ballgame is different now, but the class interests remain the same - Tories are still the party of old money and reactionaries. But the Lib Dems and Labour still represent overlapping groups - the Lib Dems mainly young professionals, Labour a weird mix of some working class, some professionals/metropolitans - but they're both basically representing a broad non reactionary set of the population and they could easily form a coalition together.

The junior party has said that in coalition they'd demand no nationalisations, no large-scale tax and spend, basically Blairism and Brexit-blocking. Why stand down candidates for another party who've already openly said they'll demand the utter gutting of your manifesto if they hold the balance of power?

That's not a common front, that's a demand for complete capitulation from a place of terrible poll ratings. It wouldn't have made any sense for Labour to do it.

Well, this is the same party that bent over, prepped a fiery hot poker, shoved it down its throat, disembowled itself and used the entrails to guide the Tory party up the rear passage for 5 years, gutting the entirety of their manifesto in the process. More than likely, they'll do the same again if you dangle a nice little carrot of voting reform in front of them, so maybe there's hope.

Maybe I shouldn't have marathoned The Thick of It until 4am.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Looks like none of the papers believed Trump on the NHS except The Sun, but that's just Murdoch trash. The whole "I don't know where that rumour came from" coupled with the old footage of Trump starting it is hilarious.

[Vassenor]

Ofcom rules that the Rt. Hon. Block of Ice MP was not an example of bias on Channel 4's part, rejects Johnson's complaints.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Ofcom rules that the Rt. Hon. Block of Ice MP was not an example of bias on Channel 4's part, rejects Johnson's complaints.

Perhaps the BBC could have Andrew Neil interview a sack of shit.

[Pasong Tirad]

Tory Voters;
"Corbyn likes the taste of Gerry Adams jam."

You can't convince me this isn't a euphemism and I am ALL FOR IT.

May the two of them have beautifully bearded children.

[Gormwood]

Ofcom rules that the Rt. Hon. Block of Ice MP was not an example of bias on Channel 4's part, rejects Johnson's complaints.

Perhaps the BBC could have Andrew Neil interview a sack of shit.

Wouldn't Johnson sue for trademark infringement then?

[The Free Joy State]

Ofcom rules that the Rt. Hon. Block of Ice MP was not an example of bias on Channel 4's part, rejects Johnson's complaints.

Oh, well -- as "an anonymous Tory source" said they would "review Channel 4's broadcasting license" if they won the election -- next policy: replacing OFCOM, for reasons of political neutrality with, COFCOF (the Conservative Office of Communication Officiation).

[Hirota]

You know, there is something amusing about people getting outraged about alleged Russian meddling in 2016, yet dismissing evidence of possible Russian meddling when it fits with their tribalism (at least current evidence suggests the same Modus Operandi as previous Russian meddling. It's early days to make bold confident claims, but a dose of healthy concern should be the default these days.)

The guardian (and other news publications) are reporting that analysis of this leak shows this was distributed via known Russian methods used in the past, and to a frequent wikileaks drop (and we know wikileaks is a Russian stooge, obviously). The obvious implication behind this is if it's being distributed by via known Russian methods, to alleged Russian drops, then it must be the evil Russians and their nefarious ways.

At the very least I'm hoping we get to see some tribalists hastily backtrack on their silly overblown rhetoric. Or (more likely) some shrill cries involving words like "false flag," "conspiracy" or some sort of daft deflection.
...

Thats not to say we shouldn't take the leak seriously. I'm personally not going to get outraged over more transparency in government - and whilst the source should give us cause for concern as to it's authenticity or what has been filtered or omitted, I think it generally a good thing data like this gets leaked.

All that aside, Labours rhetoric on these leaked NHS papers makes the entire thing look like a damp squib, once you actually look at the detail. As full fact reports in their own piece on it, what they show is that during these 6 meetings between July 2017 to July 2019 - before Boris for preliminary talks in advance of any actual trade deal:

So the documents show that, as expected, drug patents are a US negotiating objective in trade talks. But they don't clearly show us what, if anything, the UK has actually agreed.

Channel 4's own fact check service says similar:

There are political points that could be made on both sides here.

Labour are clearly keen to use the leaked documents to cause trouble for Boris Johnson. But they cover preliminary trade discussions that took place before Mr Johnson became Prime Minister.

There is nothing in the documents that proves there is a secret plot by the government to privatise the NHS, sell parts of it off or dramatically increase the health services’ drug bill. Essentially, we learn something about what the Americans might want from the final negotiations, but we don’t know what the British government is prepared to concede.

On the other hand, the documents do not chime with some public statements made by ministers about the trade negotiations. Health secretary Matt Hancock is on record as saying that the NHS is “not up for discussion” in the talks.

The leak shows that healthcare and pharmaceuticals have in fact already been discussed in some detail – although we don’t know what the final outcome will be.

(remember, we are told the UK cannot actually negotiate a trade deal until leaving the EU - by definition these cannot be "advanced" talks as Corbyn claims, and channel 4 describes them as "preliminary")

[Vassenor]

You know, there is something amusing about people getting outraged about alleged Russian meddling in 2016, yet dismissing evidence of possible Russian meddling when it fits with their tribalism (at least current evidence suggests the same Modus Operandi as previous Russian meddling. It's early days to make bold confident claims, but a dose of healthy concern should be the default these days.)

The guardian (and other news publications) are reporting that analysis of this leak shows this was distributed via known Russian methods used in the past, and to a frequent wikileaks drop (and we know wikileaks is a Russian stooge, obviously). The obvious implication behind this is if it's being distributed by via known Russian methods, to alleged Russian drops, then it must be the evil Russians and their nefarious ways.

At the very least I'm hoping we get to see some tribalists hastily backtrack on their silly overblown rhetoric. Or (more likely) some shrill cries involving words like "false flag," "conspiracy" or some sort of daft deflection.

I dunno, this post seems like a pretty shrill example of tribalism. Especially since rather than trying to debunk the content you've just resorted to trying to NO U it out of the discussion.

[Celritannia]

Which is why it is better to remain in the EU.

Yes, and in the 2014 referendum one of the major points to remain with the UK was the UK has membership to the EU. If the UK remains, then that won't be much of a problem

Not according to the British electorate, and they’re the ones who should decide.

Again, you misunderstand the SNP. They won’t stop trying for independence unless they loose their seats to another party, and even then they’ll keep trying.

Do you have a adequate poll to suggest that?
Because 17.4 million votes to leave are not hard leave voters.
Remaining in the UK is the best option for the UK.

I said they will not push for it as hard if we remain.

[Celritannia]

He isn't really on the fence. He's stated he will offer a labour deal and remain option at a referendum.
He cannot make a deal yet until he has access to the Civil Service.

As Novus America said, which one does he support? The only thing he's being clear on is his determination to stay on the fence and let other people decide.

Yes, the Lib Dems have, but are they likely to form a Government?

What's your point? That parties aren't allowed to have a manifesto until they're at least 2nd place on a national level? On the local level some constituencies have been consistantly Lib Dem or Tory, with Labour in 3rd place. Also they could be in a coalition government (though that's not going to happen this time unless they make a deal with Corbyn to gain a referendum).

He has stated a leave deal and a remain opposition on a referendum. What's hard to understand that?
It's the best option for the UK as a whole. Along with their other policies.

Parties are allowed a manifesto during an election.
Yes they have been, however, the Lib Dems have written off any form of Coalition with Corbyn. And Labour will have a referendum.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

There is indeed likely Russian meddling, in this case the Russians have leaked a genuine document showing trade discussions about the NHS between the UK and the US, that the Conservative Party really wish wasn't made public.

[Vassenor]

And besides, what interest does it serve for them?

[Hirota]

I dunno, this post seems like a pretty shrill example of tribalism. Especially since rather than trying to debunk the content you've just resorted to trying to NO U it out of the discussion.

Thanks for the daft deflection. Two more and I get bingo. Maybe I should be more generous though, I did go on to explain (and "debunk" as you rightly pointed out I had not...although it's not really about debunking it but rather putting it in proper context) in more detail.

You know what? You get a pass this time Vass. Well done you.

[Hirota]

There is indeed likely Russian meddling, in this case the Russians have leaked a genuine document showing trade discussions about the NHS between the UK and the US, that the Conservative Party really wish wasn't made public.

It's damaging (but really not as much as Labour wishes or makes out), the headlines certainly are damaging - and I guess that's probably the important part. How Labour got it's hands on the information is damaging given their previous complaints about Alleged Russian interference.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I dunno, this post seems like a pretty shrill example of tribalism. Especially since rather than trying to debunk the content you've just resorted to trying to NO U it out of the discussion.

Thanks for the daft deflection. Two more and I get bingo.

Such an individualistic game. I much preferred the old ways where everybody had to drink when someone reverted to type. Better on the liver though, I suppose.

[SD_Film Artists]

He has stated a leave deal and a remain opposition on a referendum. What's hard to understand that?

Has he said Bollocks to Brexit or does he support Brexit? That's still not clear. Of course he *could* stay on the fence for longer but true remainers should have no delusions about what kind of party they're in.

Along with their other policies.

Their semi-official neurodiversity manifesto is a progressive step but other than that it's a hopeless, unpatriotic party which is stuck somewhere between a 1970s working man's club and a modern student woke group.

Parties are allowed a manifesto during an election.
Yes they have been, however, the Lib Dems have written off any form of Coalition with Corbyn.

They did in the last election but it could be different this time since the prospect of a second referendum vs no deal is bigger on the agenda. I could be wrong though, maybe they've ruled it out this time too.

And Labour will have a referendum.

If they win. What's less clear is if they'll try to vote for a referendum in the event of a hung parliament. If they don't then it only further shows that Corbyn is only using the referendum as a tactical ballast for his fence-sitting rather than supporting it on principle.

[Vassenor]

Brexit: Tory minister admits US will be free to raise prices for drugs bought by NHS