MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

[Wallenburg]

You're not even a Trump staffer or Republican official and you're trying to rationalize his impulses.

No. I'm simply supporting civil rights, Gauth. :^)

Banning criticism of the Israeli government's policies is supporting civil rights now. I guess the fascists are right when they say we live in a clown world.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

This is some kind of farce.

“Vote for me. I am legally not allowed to run a charity without court approval, but I’ll take care of the country!”

Be honest: how is Trump any better than Joe Exotic?

[The Alma Mater]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

This is some kind of farce.

“Vote for me. I am legally not allowed to run a charity without court approval, but I’ll take care of the country!”

Be honest: how is Trump any better than Joe Exotic?

Trump avoided being convicted. Joe Exotic did not.

[New Bremerton]

As I wrote on a different thread, leftists only care about "muh free speech" when it's them being accused of antisemitism. Now they stamp their feet and cry foul. Too late. They reap what they sow. Trump did the right thing in issuing this Executive Order.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

As I wrote on a different thread, leftists only care about "muh free speech" when it's them being accused of antisemitism. Now they stamp their feet and cry foul. Too late. They reap what they sow. Trump did the right thing in issuing this Executive Order.

As opposed to you, selectively not caring about freedom of speech when it is the people you don’t agree with being trampled under the jackboot.

Boycotting Israel is not antisemitic.

[New Bremerton]

As I wrote on a different thread, leftists only care about "muh free speech" when it's them being accused of antisemitism. Now they stamp their feet and cry foul. Too late. They reap what they sow. Trump did the right thing in issuing this Executive Order.

As opposed to you, selectively not caring about freedom of speech when it is the people you don’t agree with being trampled under the jackboot.

Boycotting Israel is not antisemitic.

Lying about what I said doesn't change the truth. No one's being trampled under your hypothetical jackboot.

[Fahran]

No. I'm simply supporting civil rights, Gauth. :^)

Banning criticism of the Israeli government's policies is supporting civil rights now. I guess the fascists are right when they say we live in a clown world.

Criticizing Israel hasn't been and won't be banned. Being Antisemitic on university campuses will simply be penalized in the same way that being racist in other ways would since we're going to actually scrutinize people who use Antisemitic canards and bigoted language when criticizing Israel. I'm a bit tired of pretending that the majority of committed Anti-Zionists are good faith actors. They're not. If your organization has a habit of listening to Holocaust deniers, you don't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things.

[Fahran]

Boycotting Israel is not antisemitic.

No, but a lot of Antisemites want to boycott Israel specifically. And tend to employ hostile language when talking about Jews and Israelis.

[Cannot think of a name]

Boycotting Israel is not antisemitic.

No, but a lot of Antisemites want to boycott Israel specifically. And tend to employ hostile language when talking about Jews and Israelis.

Define "a lot". In percentages. With a survey of some kind and not "you see" etc.

[Fahran]

No, but a lot of Antisemites want to boycott Israel specifically. And tend to employ hostile language when talking about Jews and Israelis.

Define "a lot". In percentages. With a survey of some kind and not "you see" etc.

You can't attend an event hosted by an Anti-Zionist organization without discovering, at the very least, a substantial plurality of people, even in the most civilized of settings, who harbor resentments and negative attitudes towards Jewish people on the whole. In the case of Palestine, about 93% of the population has Antisemitic attitudes and Palestinians are the driving force behind BDS, a movement originated by Palestinians. So, if I had to guess in the absence of research, I'd say between 70% and 80% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites globally. And, again, the majority of them are willing to abide dog whistles and explicitly Antisemitic speakers even if they themselves aren't Anti-Semites.

Source.

[Vassenor]

As opposed to you, selectively not caring about freedom of speech when it is the people you don’t agree with being trampled under the jackboot.

Boycotting Israel is not antisemitic.

Lying about what I said doesn't change the truth. No one's being trampled under your hypothetical jackboot.

So what antisemitism is actually being covered?

[Fahran]

So what antisemitism is actually being covered?

They're using the functional definition of Antisemitism that has been adopted in multiple European countries.

"Anti-Semitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities." -- Working Definition of Anti-Semitism by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia

Source.

"For instance, it describes as anti-Semitic "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination" under some circumstances and offers as an example of such behavior “claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

Source.

The basic complaint here, when people say the definition is too sweeping, is that they'll get penalized for using dog whistles. And I really don't care.

[Proctopeo]

The basic complaint here, when people say the definition is too sweeping, is that they'll get penalized for using dog whistles. And I really don't care.

This is what confuses me; most of the people opposing this move are the type who should support penalizing people for using dog whistles (at least by my observations).

I should note that I don't really care either way about this move by the administration, being neither Jewish nor Anti-Semitic.

[Fahran]

This is what confuses me; most of the people opposing this move are the type who should support penalizing people for using dog whistles (at least by my observations).

I should note that I don't really care either way about this move by the administration, being neither Jewish nor Anti-Semitic.

I believe one aspect of it is that a lot of progressives are extremely pro-Palestine and either accept or ignore Antisemitism among Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS because it furthers their basic political objectives. Beyond that, a lot of people don't really view Jews as a class needing protection in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

[Cannot think of a name]

Define "a lot". In percentages. With a survey of some kind and not "you see" etc.

You can't attend an event hosted by an Anti-Zionist organization without discovering, at the very least, a substantial plurality of people, even in the most civilized of settings, who harbor resentments and negative attitudes towards Jewish people on the whole. In the case of Palestine, about 93% of the population has Antisemitic attitudes and Palestinians are the driving force behind BDS, a movement originated by Palestinians. So, if I had to guess in the absence of research, I'd say between 70% and 80% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites globally. And, again, the majority of them are willing to abide dog whistles and explicitly Antisemitic speakers even if they themselves aren't Anti-Semites.

Source.

Aw, did you try to sneak in numbers from people in Palestine during a conversation about American students? Aren't you adorable.

[Fahran]

Aw, did you try to sneak in numbers from people in Palestine during a conversation about American students? Aren't you adorable.

I snuck in the numbers from the population that originated BDS, the organization that some people were defending as not swarming with Antisemites. The movement has been fueled by Antisemitism since its inception. You're essentially shifting to American students because you're likely aware that we don't have exact quantitative data regarding that at the moment - though someone will get around to those studies eventually. We still have ample empirical evidence that Antisemitism is a problem in Anti-Zionist activist circles. We need merely look over individual instances of Antisemitism by such activists and the language employed by speakers invited to attend their rallies. Shouting "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!" is pretty damning.

Beyond that, people are complaining about a progressive definition of Antisemitism that is employed by the Europeans. Again, because they can abide dog whistles so long as they target the Jews.

[New Bremerton]

Define "a lot". In percentages. With a survey of some kind and not "you see" etc.

You can't attend an event hosted by an Anti-Zionist organization without discovering, at the very least, a substantial plurality of people, even in the most civilized of settings, who harbor resentments and negative attitudes towards Jewish people on the whole. In the case of Palestine, about 93% of the population has Antisemitic attitudes and Palestinians are the driving force behind BDS, a movement originated by Palestinians. So, if I had to guess in the absence of research, I'd say between 70% and 80% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites globally. And, again, the majority of them are willing to abide dog whistles and explicitly Antisemitic speakers even if they themselves aren't Anti-Semites.

Source.

B-but it's not antisemitic to associate with people who harbor antisemitic attitudes! /s

People aren't stupid.

The source you just gave is exactly why Palestinians don't deserve a state and might as well clear off to Jordan en masse. It's precisely why there is no peace between Israelis and Palestinians today.

Similarly damning percentages can be found in other Arab and Muslim-majority countries, including, I'm ashamed to say, my home country Malaysia, where the figure stands at 50% last I checked, and the figure is only that low because of the large percentage of non-Muslim Indians and Chinese like myself who don't hate Jews or Israel.

This bigotry is what the Left implicitly defends, and the correlation between a rise in anti-Zionism and a rise in antisemitic discrimination and hate crimes committed by leftists and Muslims on Western college campuses simply cannot be ignored.

The EO doesn't censor free speech or outlaw criticism of Israel, as some leftists disingenuously claim. Trump is at least doing the right thing by cracking down on this vile and toxic behavior toward Jewish students just going about their daily lives, even if his motives for doing so are questionable. Leftist hypocrisy and double standards be damned.

[Fahran]

The source you just gave is exactly why Palestinians don't deserve a state and might as well clear off to Jordan en masse. It's precisely why there is no peace between Israelis and Palestinians today.

It's a substantial contributor to the conflict, I agree, but I still maintain that Palestinians, like all other people, have an intrinsic right to national self-determination under international law and, beyond that, I feel it serves to protect their interests and identity - both from Israeli encroachment and from assimilation and abuse by neighboring Arab polities.

[Gormwood]

I like this "because there may be a few Jew haters in BDS the entire thing needs to be censored and shut down" argument.

[Fahran]

I like this "because there may be a few Jew haters in BDS the entire thing needs to be censored and shut down" argument.

That's not the argument and you full well know it.

And it's probably not a few. It's a majority or plurality and a bunch of useful yes-men who are willing to stomach the bigotry of their peers. I have yet to see any reasonable objection to punishing Antisemitic dog whistles.

[Gravlen]

Define "a lot". In percentages. With a survey of some kind and not "you see" etc.

You can't attend an event hosted by an Anti-Zionist organization without discovering, at the very least, a substantial plurality of people, even in the most civilized of settings, who harbor resentments and negative attitudes towards Jewish people on the whole. In the case of Palestine, about 93% of the population has Antisemitic attitudes and Palestinians are the driving force behind BDS, a movement originated by Palestinians. So, if I had to guess in the absence of research, I'd say between 70% and 80% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites globally. And, again, the majority of them are willing to abide dog whistles and explicitly Antisemitic speakers even if they themselves aren't Anti-Semites.

Source.

I think the point of the question was that nobody cares about your unresearched speculation.

You could have saved a lot of typing by just saying "I'm just guessing" instead.

[Vassenor]

You can't attend an event hosted by an Anti-Zionist organization without discovering, at the very least, a substantial plurality of people, even in the most civilized of settings, who harbor resentments and negative attitudes towards Jewish people on the whole. In the case of Palestine, about 93% of the population has Antisemitic attitudes and Palestinians are the driving force behind BDS, a movement originated by Palestinians. So, if I had to guess in the absence of research, I'd say between 70% and 80% of Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites globally. And, again, the majority of them are willing to abide dog whistles and explicitly Antisemitic speakers even if they themselves aren't Anti-Semites.

Source.

B-but it's not antisemitic to associate with people who harbor antisemitic attitudes! /s

People aren't stupid.

The source you just gave is exactly why Palestinians don't deserve a state and might as well clear off to Jordan en masse. It's precisely why there is no peace between Israelis and Palestinians today.

Similarly damning percentages can be found in other Arab and Muslim-majority countries, including, I'm ashamed to say, my home country Malaysia, where the figure stands at 50% last I checked, and the figure is only that low because of the large percentage of non-Muslim Indians and Chinese like myself who don't hate Jews or Israel.

This bigotry is what the Left implicitly defends, and the correlation between a rise in anti-Zionism and a rise in antisemitic discrimination and hate crimes committed by leftists and Muslims on Western college campuses simply cannot be ignored.

The EO doesn't censor free speech or outlaw criticism of Israel, as some leftists disingenuously claim. Trump is at least doing the right thing by cracking down on this vile and toxic behavior toward Jewish students just going about their daily lives, even if his motives for doing so are questionable. Leftist hypocrisy and double standards be damned.

And what vile and toxic behaviour is being covered by this EO?

[Fahran]

I think the point of the question was that nobody cares about your unresearched speculation.

You could have saved a lot of typing by just saying "I'm just guessing" instead.

It's a bit disingenuous to argue that "you're just guessing" when we have a good many instances of Antisemitic behavior coming out of Anti-Zionist circles and the population that produces a lot of those activists counts 93% of its members as Antisemitic to some degree. Refusing to see a problem just because we don't have a hard percentage on a different but related population is ridiculous. And, beyond that, the argument'll get blown out of the water the minute a study is actually done given we have multiple progressives here who have repeated Antisemitic canards in the past or who have defended them.

[Fahran]

And what vile and toxic behaviour is being covered by this EO?

A lot of it is, yes.

[Vassenor]

And what vile and toxic behaviour is being covered by this EO?

A lot of it is, yes.

That doesn't actually answer my question. I was asking what specific behaviour this EO is meant to address. "A lot of it is" doesn't really help there.