Anarchy in Puerto Rico

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

You won't be able to reverse your austerity madness if you are fully annexed into the U.S. itself though, especially under a rightist Republican administration in Washington, and if the PDP suddenly decides to go "ENLIGHTENED CENTRIST" like American Democrats did since Clinton, your economy will continue declining.

Umm the current administration is absolutely NOT implementing austerity.
We have been running a large deficit.
Austerity has not been done since the 70s.

And the US economy is growing.

I was talking about Puerto Rico's austerity measures and debt crisis, not the U.S. When did I ever mention "America is implementing austerity" in that post? Here is what I was specifically talking about:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ty/559565/

[Novus America]

The people of Puerto Rico do not want independence.
How is forcing what you want on them against their will better?

Maybe because the U.S. has a track record of FUBARing everytime it meddled in Latin American and Carribean affairs and had a track record of repression in Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Panama, et al? I wouldn't hold my breath for PR's recovery if they had to deal with Trump as their liege from D.C. You yourself stated that the questions of the referendum were rigged in a way to make it more likely for voters to choose direct rule from the 3 options, so the statistics may not be completely honest either.

It is much more complicated than that. The US has done good and bad in the region, not all bad.
Also Puerto Rico has the highest HDI and GDP per capita in Latin America, despite its problems.

And yes referendum was actually biased in favor of statehood AND independence!

It was biased by forcing people to pick between statehood and independence, independence did extremely poorly. Only a tiny number voted for it.

[Novus America]

Umm the current administration is absolutely NOT implementing austerity.
We have been running a large deficit.
Austerity has not been done since the 70s.

And the US economy is growing.

I was talking about Puerto Rico's austerity measures and debt crisis, not the U.S. When did I ever mention "America is implementing austerity" in that post? Here is what I was specifically talking about:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ty/559565/

The problem is they have no credit.
And if the US pays it off what is to keep them from spending themselves into bankruptcy again?
It would be a temporary solution at best.

I support more money being invested in Puerto Rico, but they have to get their fiscal situation in order.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

Maybe because the U.S. has a track record of FUBARing everytime it meddled in Latin American and Carribean affairs and had a track record of repression in Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Panama, et al? I wouldn't hold my breath for PR's recovery if they had to deal with Trump as their liege from D.C. You yourself stated that the questions of the referendum were rigged in a way to make it more likely for voters to choose direct rule from the 3 options, so the statistics may not be completely honest either.

It is much more complicated than that. The US has done good and bad in the region, not all bad.
Also Puerto Rico has the highest HDI and GDP per capita in Latin America, despite its problems.

And yes referendum was actually biased in favor of statehood AND independence!

It was biased by forcing people to pick between statehood and independence, independence did extremely poorly. Only a tiny number voted for it.

It's influence in the region has been predominantly bad though, especially since the effects of Operation Condor and the CIA's meddling are still felt in the region to this day (Paraguay is being led by a dominant-party system spearheaded by Stroessner's Colorado Party for instance, Argentina is dealing with financial crises every 3-5 years, Guatemala and El Salvador are ranked as some of the most violent peace-time places on Earth after they dealed with their brutal civil wars, and Brazil still can't prosecute human rights abusers from their military dictatorship. And Colombia haven't had an actual leftist in power since Jorge Eliecer Gaitán was assassinated in 1948, among other things), and only a few nations in the region (Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile and Ecuador) are actual stable and prosperous democracies. So much for "spreading democracy and warding off the reds".

[Novus America]

It is much more complicated than that. The US has done good and bad in the region, not all bad.
Also Puerto Rico has the highest HDI and GDP per capita in Latin America, despite its problems.

And yes referendum was actually biased in favor of statehood AND independence!

It was biased by forcing people to pick between statehood and independence, independence did extremely poorly. Only a tiny number voted for it.

It's influence in the region has been predominantly bad though, especially since the effects of Operation Condor and the CIA's meddling are still felt in the region to this day (Paraguay is being led by a dominant-party system spearheaded by Stroessner's Colorado Party for instance, Argentina is dealing with financial crises every 3-5 years, Guatemala and El Salvador are ranked as some of the most violent peace-time places on Earth after they dealed with their brutal civil wars, and Brazil still can't prosecute human rights abusers from their military dictatorship. And Colombia haven't had an actual leftist in power since Jorge Eliecer Gaitán was assassinated in 1948, among other things), and only a few nations in the region (Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile and Ecuador) are actual stable and prosperous democracies. So much for "spreading democracy and warding off the reds".

You are grossly overstating US influence, the CIA does not have a magical coup button.
The CIA can only support a coup already in progress, not create one from nothing.
Those problems were mostly self inflicted.
But we are wandering off topic here as we would have to discuss every one of these situations in detail.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

It's influence in the region has been predominantly bad though, especially since the effects of Operation Condor and the CIA's meddling are still felt in the region to this day (Paraguay is being led by a dominant-party system spearheaded by Stroessner's Colorado Party for instance, Argentina is dealing with financial crises every 3-5 years, Guatemala and El Salvador are ranked as some of the most violent peace-time places on Earth after they dealed with their brutal civil wars, and Brazil still can't prosecute human rights abusers from their military dictatorship. And Colombia haven't had an actual leftist in power since Jorge Eliecer Gaitán was assassinated in 1948, among other things), and only a few nations in the region (Uruguay, Costa Rica, Chile and Ecuador) are actual stable and prosperous democracies. So much for "spreading democracy and warding off the reds".

You are grossly overstating US influence, the CIA does not have a magical coup button.
The CIA can only support a coup already in progress, not create one from nothing.
Those problems were mostly self inflicted.
But we are wandering off topic here as we would have to discuss every one of these situations in detail.

Or America could simply refrain from financing tin-pot dictators in the making and vigorously ensure that democratically elected governments in the region are respected? That would secure her influence and reputation in the region during the Cold War way more effectively than just supporting the plans of far-right nutjobs whenever a government veers even slightly to the left, which would only serve to prove the Soviets right and contribute to widespread anti-American sentiment. But we are getting too offtopic here so I am gonna leave this here as a final point.

[Novus America]

You are grossly overstating US influence, the CIA does not have a magical coup button.
The CIA can only support a coup already in progress, not create one from nothing.
Those problems were mostly self inflicted.
But we are wandering off topic here as we would have to discuss every one of these situations in detail.

Or America could simply refrain from financing tin-pot dictators in the making and vigorously ensure that democratically elected governments in the region are respected? That would secure her influence and reputation in the region during the Cold War way more effectively than just supporting the plans of far-right nutjobs whenever a government veers even slightly to the left, which would only serve to prove the Soviets right and contribute to widespread anti-American sentiment. But we are getting too offtopic here so I am gonna leave this here as a final point.

Which we no longer do. But the first Cold War is not the topic.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

Or America could simply refrain from financing tin-pot dictators in the making and vigorously ensure that democratically elected governments in the region are respected? That would secure her influence and reputation in the region during the Cold War way more effectively than just supporting the plans of far-right nutjobs whenever a government veers even slightly to the left, which would only serve to prove the Soviets right and contribute to widespread anti-American sentiment. But we are getting too offtopic here so I am gonna leave this here as a final point.

Which we no longer do. But the first Cold War is not the topic.

Honduras and Haiti (Aristide was ousted again in 2004) would like to state otherwise, but I digress. Just do not try to pull off another Condor nonsense, fix your problems with income inequality, infrastructural decay and neoliberalism, ensure that Native and Black Americans finally manage to recover from the legacy of the Discovery and Jim Crow, and purge the neocon hawks from your country. Maybe then I would trust America to manage Puerto Rico properly.

[Novus America]

Which we no longer do. But the first Cold War is not the topic.

Honduras and Haiti (Aristide was ousted again in 2004) would like to state otherwise, but I digress. Just do not try to pull off another Condor nonsense, fix your problems with income inequality, infrastructural decay and neoliberalism, ensure that Native and Black Americans finally manage to recover from the legacy of the Discovery and Jim Crow, and purge the neocon hawks from your country. Maybe then I would trust America to manage Puerto Rico properly.

Well again Puerto Rico despite its problems still has the highest HDI in Latin America.
So apparently we can be trusted with it as much as anyone.

Sure we need to fix our infrastructure and kill neoliberal trade. And fix the ongoing issues with the lower performance of Native Americans and Black Americans compared to their demographics.

But even before all that, the simple fact is the overwhelming majority of Puerto Ricans want to be with the US. Do not want to lose their US citizenship.
And we should respect that.

As a result we need to ensure the have a better relationship with the US, not independence (unless they actually decide they want independence).

[Shrillland]

Now the mainland figures are starting to demand Rossello's ouster as well, a DNC vice-chairman is adding his voice to the cacophony: https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/eeuu/nota/elvicepresidentedelpartidodemocratadeeeuureclamalarenunciaderossello-2506359/

Also, a police barracks in Guayama was broken into and 48 guns and over 4,000 rounds of ammunition were stolen with a note threatening Rossello: https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/seguridad/nota/seroban48armasdefuegodeuncuarteldeguayamaydejannotadeamenazacontrarossello-2506357/

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Now the mainland figures are starting to demand Rossello's ouster as well, a DNC vice-chairman is adding his voice to the cacophony: https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/eeuu/nota/elvicepresidentedelpartidodemocratadeeeuureclamalarenunciaderossello-2506359/

Also, a police barracks in Guayama was broken into and 48 guns and over 4,000 rounds of ammunition were stolen with a note threatening Rossello: https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/seguridad/nota/seroban48armasdefuegodeuncuarteldeguayamaydejannotadeamenazacontrarossello-2506357/

The manifestation yesterday was massive. The biggest I’ve seen the island have. But there’s increasing worry that the house and senate will not impeach him.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Don't get my hopes up like that. Notify me when the Puerto Rican Commune has been established.

[Ohioan Territory]

I've long been of the opinion that Puerto Rican autonomy was a mistake. They should be governed directly by the federal government for a while, and the end goal should be preparation for statehood.

More colonialism never solves the problem. Just grant complete independence to Puerto Rico, nullify and void all of their debts to the United States, fully fund their reconstruction from Hurricane Maria, and actively work to implement social democracy in the country. That shall hopefully begin the path towards PR's recovery from its lost decade.

Giving Puerto Rico statehood is not colonialism, nor is holding a fair democratic vote as to what the people of the island want their future to be. If Puerto Ricans want independence, so be it. But that's not what they want, at least right now.

Edit: the U.S. government should try assisting Puerto Rico more given that it's still a U.S. territory. This should probably occur before considering Puerto Rican independence, given the amount of corruption there already.

[Nakena]

I've long been of the opinion that Puerto Rican autonomy was a mistake. They should be governed directly by the federal government for a while, and the end goal should be preparation for statehood.

At the very least it needs much better federal oversight, and a dedicated FBI led task force to clear out all the corrupt politicians.

I am afraid that alone wont do it. I have the strong and destinct feeling that theres deeply running structural issues and conditions that produce this kind of corruption.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

At the very least it needs much better federal oversight, and a dedicated FBI led task force to clear out all the corrupt politicians.

I am afraid that alone wont do it. I have the strong and destinct feeling that theres deeply running structural issues and conditions that produce this kind of corruption.

There is. Where do I even begin? Starting with “secret” but truly blatant nepotism, followed by embezzling, mockery of constituents, political favors, bipartisan monopolies...

[Nakena]

I am afraid that alone wont do it. I have the strong and destinct feeling that theres deeply running structural issues and conditions that produce this kind of corruption.

There is. Where do I even begin? Starting with “secret” but truly blatant nepotism, followed by embezzling, mockery of constituents, political favors, bipartisan monopolies...

Two words: Direct rule

[Liriena]

All my respect and admiration for the people of Puerto Rico, who aren't letting their government go on with impunity. If they won't willingly resign, then they're gonna have to force them to resign.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

There is. Where do I even begin? Starting with “secret” but truly blatant nepotism, followed by embezzling, mockery of constituents, political favors, bipartisan monopolies...

Two words: Direct rule

Ricky Rosselló, to give more background, is the son of former governor Pedro Rosselló who, also, had similar scandals during his terms. Daddy, unlike son, was more intelligent and was never truly pinned down for his fuckery. His kid however? Well, you see how it goes.

Shit like this repeats itself at smaller levels, like municipalities with their mayors. And don’t get me started on gov’t agency directors. That’s yet another clusterfuck.

[Novus America]

At the very least it needs much better federal oversight, and a dedicated FBI led task force to clear out all the corrupt politicians.

I am afraid that alone wont do it. I have the strong and destinct feeling that theres deeply running structural issues and conditions that produce this kind of corruption.

Well absolutely, but even if you have no moral compunctions against corruption, it is still a cost benefit analysis. Threat of life in Federal prison could help a whole lot (we need to drastically increase the punishment for political corruption).

[Novus America]

Two words: Direct rule

Ricky Rosselló, to give more background, is the son of former governor Pedro Rosselló who, also, had similar scandals during his terms. Daddy, unlike son, was more intelligent and was never truly pinned down for his fuckery. His kid however? Well, you see how it goes.

Shit like this repeats itself at smaller levels, like municipalities with their mayors. And don’t get me started on gov’t agency directors. That’s yet another clusterfuck.

Well once we purge the top, we have to purge all the way down to the local dog catcher.
No politicians should be safe.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Ricky Rosselló, to give more background, is the son of former governor Pedro Rosselló who, also, had similar scandals during his terms. Daddy, unlike son, was more intelligent and was never truly pinned down for his fuckery. His kid however? Well, you see how it goes.

Shit like this repeats itself at smaller levels, like municipalities with their mayors. And don’t get me started on gov’t agency directors. That’s yet another clusterfuck.

Well once we purge the top, we have to purge all the way down to the local dog catcher.
No politicians should be safe.

Unless you can force the house there to impeach and then go in with guns blazing to purge, I’m not sure things will change. And as PR does has self-governance, like the states, I don’t think the Fed will do any of this. Not easily that is.

[Nakena]

Two words: Direct rule

Ricky Rosselló, to give more background, is the son of former governor Pedro Rosselló who, also, had similar scandals during his terms. Daddy, unlike son, was more intelligent and was never truly pinned down for his fuckery. His kid however? Well, you see how it goes.

Shit like this repeats itself at smaller levels, like municipalities with their mayors. And don’t get me started on gov’t agency directors. That’s yet another clusterfuck.

People follow the leader and a bad example gives them all the incentive to follow it. Thus a shitty political culture is created. Thats almost impossible to fix as long as the people keep self-reproducing more of their spawn even when replaced. Basically everyone associated with the system needs to be removed to a level that a different kind of people alongside with a different culture moves in as replacement.

[Novus America]

Well once we purge the top, we have to purge all the way down to the local dog catcher.
No politicians should be safe.

Unless you can force the house there to impeach and then go in with guns blazing to purge, I’m not sure things will change. And as PR does has self-governance, like the states, I don’t think the Fed will do any of this. Not easily that is.

Well you arrest them on federal charges. Money laundering, miss-use of federal funds. Unfortunately as they do not pay federal tax you cannot use tax evasion (the easiest one to get people on).
We probably would have to suspend self governance on law enforcement and courts, at least temporarily.

[Nakena]

I am afraid that alone wont do it. I have the strong and destinct feeling that theres deeply running structural issues and conditions that produce this kind of corruption.

Well absolutely, but even if you have no moral compunctions against corruption, it is still a cost benefit analysis. Threat of life in Federal prison could help a whole lot (we need to drastically increase the punishment for political corruption).

Harsher punishment wont fix people who're shit in the first place and do not can nor know better than the way to act they always have. It's intrinsic and deeply rooted into mentality. They need to be replaced alltogether.

[Novus America]

Ricky Rosselló, to give more background, is the son of former governor Pedro Rosselló who, also, had similar scandals during his terms. Daddy, unlike son, was more intelligent and was never truly pinned down for his fuckery. His kid however? Well, you see how it goes.

Shit like this repeats itself at smaller levels, like municipalities with their mayors. And don’t get me started on gov’t agency directors. That’s yet another clusterfuck.

People follow the leader and a bad example gives them all the incentive to follow it. Thus a shitty political culture is created. Thats almost impossible to fix as long as the people keep self-reproducing more of their spawn even when replaced. Basically everyone associated with the system needs to be removed to a level that a different kind of people alongside with a different culture moves in as replacement.

True. When it gets this bad, when corruption reaches critical mass, and outside force has to go in an purge the corrupt, every single one the can find.
If you have to toss half of local politicians in the worst federal prison so be it.