Prevent and why it's okay for young Muslims to be radical.

[Jolthig]

There are no rules for being a politician. There are rules for jihaad.

Which apparently includes flying airplanes full of people into buildings of civilians.

I won't include the one that hit the Pentagon as at least that supposedly follows the rules somewhat. It was a military target ---

Oh except the people on that plane too, were civilians. And the one that went down in that iield in Pennsylvania.

What a disgusting attitude and a disgusting religion to allow that, since you're saying that's what Islam allows.

And do NOT say, "but they weren't REALLY Muslims." Do not. They were. Apparently the type that you applaud, rather than the ones who live peacefully side by side with other religions RIGHT NOW in NY.

Hideous, disgusting apology for the world YOU are outlining as your future utopia, because supporting jihad is supporting that, no matter WHAT you protest.

What do you think of Ahmadiyya's stance on jihad? We aren't allowed to rise up against governments that allow us to practice our faith and since we have the ability to migrate to nations that allow us to practice if we are oppressed?

[Rojava Free State]

Can you prove that terrorism or hate crimes perpetrated by Muslims are a huge problem? Are they rampant and unnaturally frequent or are showing a trend in statistically significant change?

A source, rather than anecdotal evidence, if you please.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861 ... ims-survey

[Darussalam]

I think the article is suggesting it's okay for young Muslims to support things like sharia law, forcing Islam on everybody and demanding we respect their traditions while taking the piss out of ours. Not radical as in revolt against the 1%

Pro tip: If you're going to claim that an article says something, it's usually a good idea to make sure it actually does say that first.

The article doesn't say anything. In reality, everyone knows what they're talking about when we're talking about 'Muslim radicals' - they're not talking about Muslim communists or queer activists. I'm sure Al-Mumtahanah would be heavily repulsed with the form of radicalism implicitly endorsed in the article - something vaguely woke and left-leaning - but they endorsed the article's content out of sheer opportunism anyway. But the sort of 'radicals' preferred by Grauniad is actually fairly conformist. The sort of people who would write for the Grauniad, for example, or appearing in the BBC. Radicals targeted by Prevent and would be defended by Al-Mumtahanah are an entirely different breed and in a non-clown world would be farthest possible from the Progressive overton window.

If you want to criticize excessive deradicalization policy, an intentionally strawmanning article isn't a good foundation for it.

[Vassenor]

A source, rather than anecdotal evidence, if you please.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861 ... ims-survey

That doesn't actually prove that "terrorism or hate crimes perpetrated by Muslims are a huge problem". The question wasn't about attitudes, it was about actions.

[Katganistan]

Except when their beliefs include beating, killing, or imprisoning people for religious reasons.

Why?

It's a question that is so obvious it needs no answer. If this is the level of your discourse, I'm not bothering with you.

[Katganistan]

Is it ok for young Muslims to be radical? Well if by radical you mean something like oppose capitalism, be socialist/communist or try to radically progress society then sure, that's fine. If by radical you mean advocating death for non-believers or supporting terrorists then no, it's not ok, I'm the same way it's not ok for young white people to be Nazis or white supremacists.

Indeed. On both counts.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Is it ok for young Muslims to be radical? Well if by radical you mean something like oppose capitalism, be socialist/communist or try to radically progress society then sure, that's fine. If by radical you mean advocating death for non-believers or supporting terrorists then no, it's not ok, I'm the same way it's not ok for young white people to be Nazis or white supremacists.

Communism doesn't deserve another chance.

[Katganistan]

Really? Children. Men and women going to work? Those are terrorists?

You seriously take the cake.

I really really think we need to build the wall between church and state ten feet higher just so this nightmarish sharia apocalypse could never possibly come true

Btw he may have meant al qaeda were terrorists but idk. He may have meant the innocent people killed

Al Qaeda were not in the buildings. People going to work, and schoolchildren, were.

Some fucking military that is.

[Darussalam]

Is it ok for young Muslims to be radical? Well if by radical you mean something like oppose capitalism, be socialist/communist or try to radically progress society then sure, that's fine. If by radical you mean advocating death for non-believers or supporting terrorists then no, it's not ok, I'm the same way it's not ok for young white people to be Nazis or white supremacists.

Communism doesn't deserve another chance.

Yeah, this ignores that communism was once a millenarian death cult with actual death tolls. The reason why it's preferable nowadays than being a radical Islamist is perhaps because being a communist today is no longer radical.

[The Free Joy State]

In light of this, what is your opinion of Prevent? I believe it should be overhauled or abolished as it is by nature discriminatory and targets Muslims and is often overzealous.

I disagree with The Guardian. The Prevent programme isn't just aimed at Islamic extremism, but -- as outlined here -- is aimed at providing education and intervention to prevent all radicalisation, including among far-right groups and any other causes.

I think it's a good programme.

[Vassenor]

In light of this, what is your opinion of Prevent? I believe it should be overhauled or abolished as it is by nature discriminatory and targets Muslims and is often overzealous.

I disagree with The Guardian. The Prevent programme isn't just aimed at Islamic extremism, but -- as outlined here -- is aimed at providing education and intervention to prevent all radicalisation, including among far-right groups and any other causes.

I think it's a good programme.

Theory vs practice.

[Arcturus Novus]

I’m confused - are these like, Muslims who are radically left-wing, or the “radical Islamic terrorists” that you hear conservatives raving about? Because if it’s the former, cool.

[Katganistan]

Which apparently includes flying airplanes full of people into buildings of civilians.

I won't include the one that hit the Pentagon as at least that supposedly follows the rules somewhat. It was a military target ---

Oh except the people on that plane too, were civilians. And the one that went down in that iield in Pennsylvania.

What a disgusting attitude and a disgusting religion to allow that, since you're saying that's what Islam allows.

And do NOT say, "but they weren't REALLY Muslims." Do not. They were. Apparently the type that you applaud, rather than the ones who live peacefully side by side with other religions RIGHT NOW in NY.

Hideous, disgusting apology for the world YOU are outlining as your future utopia, because supporting jihad is supporting that, no matter WHAT you protest.

What do you think of Ahmadiyya's stance on jihad? We aren't allowed to rise up against governments that allow us to practice our faith and since we have the ability to migrate to nations that allow us to practice if we are oppressed?

To be very clear, I am not speaking of all Muslims. I live and work alongside men, women and children who are not supporters to the violent jihad ECKU continually espouses.

I know this is only anecdotal, but the vast majority of people practicing Islam whom I have met are generous, loving, open and welcoming people. And I know very well about the spirit of charity and community inherent in Islam as they practice it. I am appalled by some of the arguments I have seen in this thread.

Ahmadiyya's stance seems what a reasonable person would say -- that as long as you are not persecuted for your faith, and allowed to practice it freely, you should not attack the governments that allow it, and that since you can move out of intolerant/openly hostile places to places that DO allow it, there is no reason to attack governments anyhow.

A source, rather than anecdotal evidence, if you please.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861 ... ims-survey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute

Mmmmm rather biased. And caught out publishing false information. I think not.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Yes, never mind that my examples did not include any of those people nor are the warlords that i gave examples of described as great men. But somehow, that means all white warlords are described as great men. What incredible reasoning.

I don't know who any of them are and neither do most white people.

Nice casual racism you are throwing in right here. Isn't tolerance a teaching in your religion? But wait... limmie guess, Infidel something something bullshit excuse?

By that logic, slavery isn’t extreme.

Depends on the type

Nice to see you once again, openly support slavery. Allah must indeed be merciful if he supports slavery.

Like I said Jihadist is just a term used for Wahhabist extremist groups. It is not the true jihad.

Jihadist is someone who commits jihaad. I'm being a jihadist right now.

You might want to rethink that one....

Correct, but a Muslim should still be tried in a Shari'ah court. The kufr courts that we live under do not enact true justice, as true justice is only from Allah SWT. Imo, Muslims should be tried only under Shari'ah courts, or at least have the present courts have Shari'ah guidelines alongside the kufr guidelines.

Then how about moving to a country that HAS them? Why not live your perfect life with your perfect religion under your perfect courts and laws in a country that already operates the way you say it should be? Why would you want to be surrounded by unbelievers and injustice when the solution is so simple a toddler could figure it out?

Put your money where your mouth is. Go where there IS your beloved Sharia law and non-kufr courts. Leave other people and their secular existences out of your utopia.

Here is the utter hypocrisy of it -- you won't. Because you don't want to live in those countries. Look at how you've been arguing that this isn't REAL Islam, that isn't REAL Islam -- but you want to change non-Islamic countries to Islamic law. Well, fuck that very much.

All you've done is convince people who were at least neutral and willing to give you a hearing that preventing young Muslim men from becoming radicalized is critical to the safety and security of people in their own homes, and convinced the people who spout that Islam is a violent religion incapable of living peacefully with non-believers that they are absolutely correct.

Congratulations.

Well said Kat.

I really really think we need to build the wall between church and state ten feet higher just so this nightmarish sharia apocalypse could never possibly come true

Btw he may have meant al qaeda were terrorists but idk. He may have meant the innocent people killed

Al Qaeda were not in the buildings. People going to work, and schoolchildren, were.

Some fucking military that is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a few years, but I seem to recall a news feed where a daycare/preschool across the street was pretty much leveled when the buildings fell as well. Don't remember the casualty count though, but I think most if not all were evacuated or were being evacuated when the buildings fell.

[The Free Joy State]

I disagree with The Guardian. The Prevent programme isn't just aimed at Islamic extremism, but -- as outlined here -- is aimed at providing education and intervention to prevent all radicalisation, including among far-right groups and any other causes.

I think it's a good programme.

Theory vs practice.

If it's not been managed to get the far-right and other extremist group as well as those who may be drawn to Islamic extremists, why does that scream: let's all throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Far-right terrorism is still a risk in the UK as is Islamic extremism.

If the Prevent strategy is not being focused effectively, then refocus it, work to improve it. Don't scrap it entirely.

[Jolthig]

What do you think of Ahmadiyya's stance on jihad? We aren't allowed to rise up against governments that allow us to practice our faith and since we have the ability to migrate to nations that allow us to practice if we are oppressed?

To be very clear, I am not speaking of all Muslims. I live and work alongside men, women and children who are not supporters to the violent jihad ECKU continually espouses.

I know this is only anecdotal, but the vast majority of people practicing Islam whom I have met are generous, loving, open and welcoming people. And I know very well about the spirit of charity and community inherent in Islam as they practice it. I am appalled by some of the arguments I have seen in this thread.

Ahmadiyya's stance seems what a reasonable person would say -- that as long as you are not persecuted for your faith, and allowed to practice it freely, you should not attack the governments that allow it, and that since you can move out of intolerant/openly hostile places to places that DO allow it, there is no reason to attack governments anyhow.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861 ... ims-survey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute

Mmmmm rather biased. And caught out publishing false information. I think not.

Okay, and yeah, I've been trying to reach out to Amin/ECKU on that topic. He isn't an ISIS kind of Muslim, but he seems to use weird ways of explaining things.

But I'm appalled as well for the support of Taliban some fellow members of the IDT are advocating. Which the Taliban are responable for the attacks in Lahore against Ahmadis in 2010 and many innocents were killed.

Anyone who advocates for Taliban will be debated by myself with theological and common sense arguments.

Edit #4: I cant type today it seems lol

[Katganistan]

I don't know who any of them are and neither do most white people.

Nice casual racism you are throwing in right here. Isn't tolerance a teaching in your religion? But wait... limmie guess, Infidel something something bullshit excuse?

Depends on the type

Nice to see you once again, openly support slavery. Allah must indeed be merciful if he supports slavery.

Jihadist is someone who commits jihaad. I'm being a jihadist right now.

You might want to rethink that one....

Then how about moving to a country that HAS them? Why not live your perfect life with your perfect religion under your perfect courts and laws in a country that already operates the way you say it should be? Why would you want to be surrounded by unbelievers and injustice when the solution is so simple a toddler could figure it out?

Put your money where your mouth is. Go where there IS your beloved Sharia law and non-kufr courts. Leave other people and their secular existences out of your utopia.

Here is the utter hypocrisy of it -- you won't. Because you don't want to live in those countries. Look at how you've been arguing that this isn't REAL Islam, that isn't REAL Islam -- but you want to change non-Islamic countries to Islamic law. Well, fuck that very much.

All you've done is convince people who were at least neutral and willing to give you a hearing that preventing young Muslim men from becoming radicalized is critical to the safety and security of people in their own homes, and convinced the people who spout that Islam is a violent religion incapable of living peacefully with non-believers that they are absolutely correct.

Congratulations.

Well said Kat.

Al Qaeda were not in the buildings. People going to work, and schoolchildren, were.

Some fucking military that is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a few years, but I seem to recall a news feed where a daycare/preschool across the street was pretty much leveled when the buildings fell as well. Don't remember the casualty count though, but I think most if not all were evacuated or were being evacuated when the buildings fell.

I don't know about that, Paddy, but I do know that students from my school were there that morning as part of our Co-Op program -- they went to high school part-time, and interned in businesses around the city. Three of them were there. Not to mention the towers were also a very popular tourist destination -- one I had been in twice -- with an observation deck way above the city that was really a giant, open floor with floor to ceiling glass walls.

I also have friends and family members who survived and saw shit no one should have to see... and who lost members of their family. There is literally NO ONE here in NY who lived here on 9/11 who was not affected, did not know someone who died, did not know someone who got cancer as a consequence of the chemicals that were breathed for months if not years on end, did not know someone who was/is still suffering from PTSD 18 years later. So if anyone is under the impression that I am heartily against ECKU , Al Mumtahanah and Khataiy's apologist antics for violent jihad and sharia law in non-Muslim states, that is an accurate impression.

But ECKU has the gall to call children, tourists, and the men and women who worked in the World Trade Center terrorists. That really takes the bloody cake.

[edit]No, you're right. It was a daycare for kids whose parents worked in the towers.

[Jolthig]

Nice casual racism you are throwing in right here. Isn't tolerance a teaching in your religion? But wait... limmie guess, Infidel something something bullshit excuse?



Nice to see you once again, openly support slavery. Allah must indeed be merciful if he supports slavery.



You might want to rethink that one....



Well said Kat.



Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a few years, but I seem to recall a news feed where a daycare/preschool across the street was pretty much leveled when the buildings fell as well. Don't remember the casualty count though, but I think most if not all were evacuated or were being evacuated when the buildings fell.

I don't know about that, Paddy, but I do know that students from my school were there that morning as part of our Co-Op program -- they went to high school part-time, and interned in businesses around the city. Three of them were there. Not to mention the towers were also a very popular tourist destination -- one I had been in twice -- with an observation deck way above the city that was really a giant, open floor with floor to ceiling glass walls.

I also have friends and family members who survived and saw shit no one should have to see... and who lost members of their family. So if anyone is under the impression that I am heartily against ECKU , Al Mumtahanah and apologist antics for violent jihad and sharia law in non-Muslim states, that is an accurate impression.

But ECKU has the gall to call children, tourists, and the men and women who worked in the World Trade Center terrorists.

And taliban are the same people that massacred my people in 2010. My heart aches for those Taliban kill everyday

[Highever]

You want special religious courts leave for a country that has one, you live a secular nation you abide by secular laws, i dont give a fuck if thats kufr or whatever, take it or leave it.

Yeah that about sums it all up really.

[The South Falls]

Radicalization can lead to violence, and the preventing of radicalization is important to curb violence. Good step.

[Katganistan]

I don't know about that, Paddy, but I do know that students from my school were there that morning as part of our Co-Op program -- they went to high school part-time, and interned in businesses around the city. Three of them were there. Not to mention the towers were also a very popular tourist destination -- one I had been in twice -- with an observation deck way above the city that was really a giant, open floor with floor to ceiling glass walls.

I also have friends and family members who survived and saw shit no one should have to see... and who lost members of their family. So if anyone is under the impression that I am heartily against ECKU , Al Mumtahanah and apologist antics for violent jihad and sharia law in non-Muslim states, that is an accurate impression.

But ECKU has the gall to call children, tourists, and the men and women who worked in the World Trade Center terrorists.

And taliban are the same people that massacred my people in 2010. My heart aches for those Taliban kill everyday

Anyone who does not sympathize with their victims, and those left behind with a hole in their hearts and souls, must be monsters. Suffering is suffering, and it is no less because we have different faiths. I'm sorry for your loss.

[Highever]

Radicalization can lead to violence, and the preventing of radicalization is important to curb violence. Good step.

Radicalization that leads to a sense of entitlement to special treatment outside of the law that applies to everyone else is also a dangerous sentiment.

[Paddy O Fernature]

I don't know about that, Paddy, but I do know that students from my school were there that morning as part of our Co-Op program -- they went to high school part-time, and interned in businesses around the city. Three of them were there. Not to mention the towers were also a very popular tourist destination -- one I had been in twice -- with an observation deck way above the city that was really a giant, open floor with floor to ceiling glass walls.

I also have friends and family members who survived and saw shit no one should have to see... and who lost members of their family. So if anyone is under the impression that I am heartily against ECKU , Al Mumtahanah and Khataiy's apologist antics for violent jihad and sharia law in non-Muslim states, that is an accurate impression.

But ECKU has the gall to call children, tourists, and the men and women who worked in the World Trade Center terrorists. That really takes the bloody cake.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

I was a Senior when it happened. My senior class actually had a trip planned for the towers later in the school year/early the next year as part of our East Coast/DC trip. Needless to say, for what should be obvious reasons to anyone alive at the time, the trip never happened and was fully cancelled. Wouldn't be back into the area until nearly fifteen years later to visit the memorial.

Hey Kat, everything side, if you ever need someone to talk to that can relate to your situation, my TG Box is always open.

[Grenartia]

Nice casual racism you are throwing in right here. Isn't tolerance a teaching in your religion? But wait... limmie guess, Infidel something something bullshit excuse?



Nice to see you once again, openly support slavery. Allah must indeed be merciful if he supports slavery.



You might want to rethink that one....



Well said Kat.



Correct me if I'm wrong, as it's been a few years, but I seem to recall a news feed where a daycare/preschool across the street was pretty much leveled when the buildings fell as well. Don't remember the casualty count though, but I think most if not all were evacuated or were being evacuated when the buildings fell.

I don't know about that, Paddy, but I do know that students from my school were there that morning as part of our Co-Op program -- they went to high school part-time, and interned in businesses around the city. Three of them were there. Not to mention the towers were also a very popular tourist destination -- one I had been in twice -- with an observation deck way above the city that was really a giant, open floor with floor to ceiling glass walls.

I also have friends and family members who survived and saw shit no one should have to see... and who lost members of their family. So if anyone is under the impression that I am heartily against ECKU , Al Mumtahanah and Khataiy's apologist antics for violent jihad and sharia law in non-Muslim states, that is an accurate impression.

But ECKU has the gall to call children, tourists, and the men and women who worked in the World Trade Center terrorists. That really takes the bloody cake.

[edit]No, you're right. It was a daycare for kids whose parents worked in the towers.

God bless you, Kat.

[Infernal Sodality]

I don’t support Islam because they only allow one god.