UK Politics Thread X: Boris' Big Bonkers Brexit Bash

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Oh my God, there's two of us.

Wait, really? Just us? I thought most Brexiteers would at least want some amicable split from the union.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

A brexiteer who doesn’t want no deal?

According to some here, you do not exist.

Of course I want a deal, that's why I was so bitterly disappointed by May's attempts at getting one. I wanted us to leave the union on good(ish) terms. Now it doesn't seem possible.

As a Swede on the other side of the North Sea... I am surprised to say that even though I have become ardently anti-Brexit... I would agree with you if a Brexit must happen. Of course I'd rather want you cooperating with us inside the union but alas...

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Would you pick no deal or no Brexit?

Stop employing binary opposition, you know I'd pick neither of those things.

I think that's the state of play. I don't see a deal as likely to happen now.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Stop employing binary opposition, you know I'd pick neither of those things.

I think that's the state of play. I don't see a deal as likely to happen now.

Picking no deal would be like committing suicide.

Picking no Brexit would be like staying in an unhappy marriage and then eventually dying bitter and unhappy.

So.………..???

[Old Tyrannia]

Oh my God, there's two of us.

Wait, really? Just us? I thought most Brexiteers would at least want some amicable split from the union.

I'm sure most do, but the hardliners pushing for a no deal scenario have sort of drowned out any more moderate voices. Similarly I think many remain voters who might have been open to some kind of compromise have been silenced by pressure from hardline Europhiles demanding a second vote. In general the current political climate and our partisan system is driving more people towards the extremes.

[Phoenicaea]

^ pardon, a deal is plausible to me. i live in italy, and let me say, used to these behaviours.
if you suggest to close your westmninster, it means also you play an opera piece.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Image presented without comment:

[The Free Joy State]

While openly advocating for breaking it because Brenda thinks that democratic debate on Brexit is a good thing.

I like the monarchy as in institution. It is the most noble form of statecraft. I love watching the royal weddings, the Christmas address, the pomp and ceremony, a hereditary House of Lords.

But I fear that they, like most of the ruling class of this nation, simply oligarchic globalist neoliberals. Quite happy to sell our national heritage. The day that becomes blatantly apparent they must go.

So, you like the rheumy-eyed idea of a monarchy but not what it actually means in practise?

if it wasn't going to fuck us it would be absolutely amazing to behold. imagine the sheer balls to complain about how the EU is undemocratic then pull that shit. every single time any person brings up leaving the EU ever again throughout the entire continent for the next 50 years would, if people have their heads screwed on right, be something along the lines of "but look at the complete shitshow that was brexit".

I don't really understand why people complain about the EU being undemocratic either. Perhaps it's because I'm not particularly keen on democracy in the first place, but to be truthful the existence of the European Parliament and Commission are a big aspect of why I dislike the whole organisation. If it were organised as a simple league of countries governed as far as possible by something resembling the Concert of Europe, I'd be much more enthusiastic about the whole project. It's specifically the assumption of state-like apparatus by the EU, such as a directly elected parliamentary body, that I dislike, since it's part of the EU's general federalist ambitions.

The no deal scenario is pretty much total departure without anything. A deal means a divorce/settlement, no deal is literally leaving without any compensation.

The idea of Brexit is not damaging. As someone who originally voted for it, I still don't see it as the worst thing ever. Rather, the way it's been handled by this government and the idea of a no deal is what's probably going to fuck things up.

Oh my God, there's two of us.

We have a pair, people!

For my part, I think that more people on the remain side would be a lot less ardently opposed if -- rather than the government manage Brexit as ineptly as it has been, before throwing their hands up and going for the total ignominious fuck-up that is a no-deal -- the government had worked towards a decent deal and a managed exit.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

When I think of the backstop these days the words of the German commentator of the 1977 Silver Jubilee Parade at Sennelager comes to mind...

"Eines etwas unerfröhlicher Akzent des Ganzen, wenn Mann daran denkt, das Irland, ein Teil Europas-, ein Teil des westlichen Europas so eine Unruhe herrscht im Britischen Königreich, worden ist und immer noch bleibt..."
"An somewhat unhappy accent to the whole, when you consider that such unrest rules in Ireland of the United Kingdom, a part of Europe-, a part of Western Europe. Always has been and always will be..."

Let's not go back to that shall we?
_{Also apologies if my German is bad...}

[Souseiseki]

Wait, really? Just us? I thought most Brexiteers would at least want some amicable split from the union.

I'm sure most do, but the hardliners pushing for a no deal scenario have sort of drowned out any more moderate voices. Similarly I think many remain voters who might have been open to some kind of compromise have been silenced by pressure from hardline Europhiles demanding a second vote. In general the current political climate and our partisan system is driving more people towards the extremes.

second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.

[Phoenicaea]

we have to dispute financial transaction tax before, deal after. turn omelette upside down

[Cerinda]

I just want to remind people what happened the last time a monarch tried to suspend parliment.

[Old Tyrannia]

I'm sure most do, but the hardliners pushing for a no deal scenario have sort of drowned out any more moderate voices. Similarly I think many remain voters who might have been open to some kind of compromise have been silenced by pressure from hardline Europhiles demanding a second vote. In general the current political climate and our partisan system is driving more people towards the extremes.

second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.

I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.

Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.

I just want to remind people what happened the last time a monarch tried to suspend parliment.

Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.

[Ifreann]

second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.

I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.

Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.

Could the time be right for Meaningful Vote XXVIII?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.

When was it last suspended against the will of parliament? <.<

[Dooom35796821595]

On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...

[Ifreann]

On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...

I think you killed him.

[Old Tyrannia]

Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.

When was it last suspended against the will of parliament? <.<

I'm not an expert on parliamentary history, but there have been a few controversial incidences of the government asking the monarch to prorogue Parliament for political reasons over the past few centuries. Clement Attlee did it in 1948, and John Major did it in 1997. That's just from looking it up on Wikipedia.

Not to say that I at all approve of Boris Johnson's actions; I'm just pointing out that comparisons to Charles I are rather hyperbolic.

[Souseiseki]

second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.

I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.

Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.

I just want to remind people what happened the last time a monarch tried to suspend parliment.

Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.

a second vote would break the deadlock by providing a majority for a given option. this makes EEA/EFTA viable, since no dealers would scream their heads off about how it's a betrayal of the people otherwise. though, yes, i would probably want remain on there since, to paraphrase nigel farage, i am not willing to accept 52-48 as the end of it. i don't think the media would be anywhere near as terrified of the idea of having remain on the ballot or the idea of a second vote at all if there wasn't a real prospect remain would win.

[Dooom35796821595]

On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...

I think you killed him.

Well we can always forgo the ritualistic effigy burning this year, allowing him to rise from his eternal slumber to fulfill his ultimate destiny.

Although, now it’s evident why parliament want this settled before November.

[Old Tyrannia]

I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.

Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.

Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.

a second vote would break the deadlock by providing a majority for a given option. this makes EEA/EFTA viable, since no dealers would scream their heads off about how it's a betrayal of the people otherwise. though, yes, i would probably want remain on there since, to paraphrase nigel farage, i am not willing to accept 52-48 as the end of it. i don't think the media would be anywhere near as terrified of the idea of having remain on the ballot or the idea of a second vote at all if there wasn't a real prospect remain would win.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think remaining in the EU should be an option at this stage, and if we were to have a second referendum and a majority voted to remain I personally would feel that democracy had been manipulated to frustrate the ambitions of those of us who have wished to leave all along. I suspect I would not be the only leave voter to feel that way, and that would be quite dangerous.

On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.

Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...

To be honest at this point a Corbyn government does not scare me the way that it used to. If Corbyn was able to negotiate some kind of amicable exit from the EU and keep the union together, well, I'll never like the man but I would respect him far more than any other Prime Minister in my lifetime. He certainly couldn't do a worse job than the current administration. I'm so frustrated with the political right in this country at the moment that the other day I genuinely thought about joining the Labour Party. There have been times in our country's past when the socialists have proven to be truer patriots than the so-called conservatives, and with the Tories set on a path that could lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom I've wondered if this might prove to be one of those times.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

All this reminds me of this lovely little ditty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2lp0dOf5OY

[Ifreann]

a second vote would break the deadlock by providing a majority for a given option. this makes EEA/EFTA viable, since no dealers would scream their heads off about how it's a betrayal of the people otherwise. though, yes, i would probably want remain on there since, to paraphrase nigel farage, i am not willing to accept 52-48 as the end of it. i don't think the media would be anywhere near as terrified of the idea of having remain on the ballot or the idea of a second vote at all if there wasn't a real prospect remain would win.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think remaining in the EU should be an option at this stage, and if we were to have a second referendum and a majority voted to remain I personally would feel that democracy had been manipulated to frustrate the ambitions of those of us who have wished to leave all along. I suspect I would not be the only leave voter to feel that way, and that would be quite dangerous.

Democracy being manipulated how?

[Nakena]

To be honest at this point a Corbyn government does not scare me the way that it used to. If Corbyn was able to negotiate some kind of amicable exit from the EU and keep the union together, well, I'll never like the man but I would respect him far more than any other Prime Minister in my lifetime. He certainly couldn't do a worse job than the current administration. I'm so frustrated with the political right in this country at the moment that the other day I genuinely thought about joining the Labour Party. There have been times in our country's past when the socialists have proven to be truer patriots than the so-called conservatives, and with the Tories set on a path that could lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom I've wondered if this might prove to be one of those times.

Not everything is what it appears or claims to be. Certainly not so in our current times.

[Souseiseki]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think remaining in the EU should be an option at this stage, and if we were to have a second referendum and a majority voted to remain I personally would feel that democracy had been manipulated to frustrate the ambitions of those of us who have wished to leave all along. I suspect I would not be the only leave voter to feel that way, and that would be quite dangerous.

how do you think remain voters would feel if they genuinely thought the country might have changed its mind on brexit and that the country should have the option of reconsidering the idea but leavers kept trying to block it until it was too late? putting aside the rest of the brexit mess.