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UK Politics Thread X: Boris' Big Bonkers Brexit Bash

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your favoured form of brexit?

Mays deal
28
5%
EFTA
36
6%
Some other sort of deal (please elaborate in the comments)
24
4%
Mays deal without Irish backstop
9
2%
No deal
132
23%
No deal+ (no deal minus NI and Scotland)
20
4%
I want a second referendum
208
37%
Revoke article 50 without even calling a referendum
105
19%
 
Total votes : 562

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:44 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
you are not the top few percent

even if you're actually rich, which i will assume you are not, you are still not the top few percent

In the country? My family are definitely in the top few percent.


So basically you want a comfortable aristocracy?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:45 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Oh I'm not really interested in quality of life across the board, only the top few percent.


you are not the top few percent

even if you're actually rich, which i will assume you are not, you are still not the top few percent


Mate 2/3rds of the country don't have more than 1000 pound in their bank. I'm in the top few percent because I saved up 5 grand.
It's just that the jump between top 10% and top 1% is fucking massive, and the jump between top 1 and top 0.1 is even more bigger by orders of magnitude.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:46 am

Chan Island wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:In the country? My family are definitely in the top few percent.


So basically you want a comfortable aristocracy?

I definitely want protection for my inheritance. If they'd stop spending it that would be lovely.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:47 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
you are not the top few percent

even if you're actually rich, which i will assume you are not, you are still not the top few percent


Mate 2/3rds of the country don't have more than 1000 pound in their bank. I'm in the top few percent because I saved up 5 grand.

Seriously? Surely that figure changes a bit on student loans day.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Chan Island
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Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:47 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
So basically you want a comfortable aristocracy?

I definitely want protection for my inheritance. If they'd stop spending it that would be lovely.


Didn't you once mention your family rents out like 50 buildings? Your inheritance is surely already pretty considerable?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:47 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
you are not the top few percent

even if you're actually rich, which i will assume you are not, you are still not the top few percent


Mate 2/3rds of the country don't have more than 1000 pound in their bank. I'm in the top few percent because I saved up 5 grand.
It's just that the jump between top 10% and top 1% is fucking massive, and the jump between top 1 and top 0.1 is even more bigger by orders of magnitude.


for reference i am interpreting top few percent as 1%-3%
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:48 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Mate 2/3rds of the country don't have more than 1000 pound in their bank. I'm in the top few percent because I saved up 5 grand.

Seriously? Surely that figure changes a bit on student loans day.


I flubbed. It's savings, not strictly money in the bank. If the money is there transitoonally it doesn't count.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 18661
Founded: May 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:49 am

Chan Island wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I definitely want protection for my inheritance. If they'd stop spending it that would be lovely.


Didn't you once mention your family rents out like 50 buildings? Your inheritance is surely already pretty considerable?

A bit more than 50 buildings. 50 might be the commercial property side of things, which is rather small.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Shrillland
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Posts: 22415
Founded: Apr 12, 2010
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Shrillland » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:49 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Philjia wrote:The DUP are currently saying no, so either they'll need to change their mind or Boris will need to give the old magic money tree a shake to rustle up another bribe.

So we are not quite at Habemus Papam yet?


Not quite. It still violates the Good Friday Agreement by requiring a simple majority of MAs.
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:50 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Mate 2/3rds of the country don't have more than 1000 pound in their bank. I'm in the top few percent because I saved up 5 grand.
It's just that the jump between top 10% and top 1% is fucking massive, and the jump between top 1 and top 0.1 is even more bigger by orders of magnitude.


for reference i am interpreting top few percent as 1%-3%


I think it's worth mentioning that even the peak of our society is fucked over because of just has comically lopsided our society is.

The top 1% have more in common with the bottom 1% than they d0 with the top 0.1
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Chan Island
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Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:52 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Didn't you once mention your family rents out like 50 buildings? Your inheritance is surely already pretty considerable?

A bit more than 50 buildings. 50 might be the commercial property side of things, which is rather small.


Holy moly. How many residential ones Then?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Chan Island
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Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:53 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
for reference i am interpreting top few percent as 1%-3%


I think it's worth mentioning that even the peak of our society is fucked over because of just has comically lopsided our society is.

The top 1% have more in common with the bottom 1% than they d0 with the top 0.1


Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18661
Founded: May 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 am

Chan Island wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that even the peak of our society is fucked over because of just has comically lopsided our society is.

The top 1% have more in common with the bottom 1% than they d0 with the top 0.1


Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.

821000 households are millionaires.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Hirota » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 am

Greed and Death wrote:
Hirota wrote:I know right? As soon as the XR protester on top of the train starts kicking out then violence is inevitable.

But the idea of posh idiots with too much time on their hands targetting electic public transport for primarily working class commuters in Shadwell is stupid and self-defeating.


The XR protesters are going too far. I propose they be rounded up and imprisoned for 100 years on a reduced calorie diet in the coal region. Their diet may be increased and their sentenced reduced by mining coal.
Well, that might be excessive, but there is something about rich Belgian Princesses and other assorted posh types having to walk a mile in working class shoes that would give any person with just some socialist leanings a warm fuzzy feeling.
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Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:55 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.

821000 households are millionaires.


Some of them might even be able to afford a house.
Are these "human rights" in the room with us right now?
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:55 am

Chan Island wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:A bit more than 50 buildings. 50 might be the commercial property side of things, which is rather small.


Holy moly. How many residential ones Then?

A couple of hundred, if you include student lets. Most of them are in shitty areas, but they do them up. Slum areas but not slum landlording practises.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:57 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.

821000 households are millionaires.


So they own their own home? Cool.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:57 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:821000 households are millionaires.


Some of them might even be able to afford a house.

I would imagine the vast majority of them are people who just happen to have owned a house in London for a long while and it's risen in value. They might be property rich but not cash rich.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Hirota » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:57 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:821000 households are millionaires.


Some of them might even be able to afford a house.
I own my own house, does that make me wealthier than most millionaires? :unsure:

Although I did do the (unintentionally) savvy thing of buying my first shitty house in London in an area that started getting gentrified, so I was able to afford my tidy semi-detached with next to no mortgage.
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger - Confucius
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted and pedants.
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Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
I use obviously in italics to emphasise the conveying of sarcasm. If I've put excessive obviously's into a post that means I'm being sarcastic

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:58 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Some of them might even be able to afford a house.

I would imagine the vast majority of them are people who just happen to have owned a house in London for a long while and it's risen in value. They might be property rich but not cash rich.


Exactly. So it's not evidence against mass robbery by the ruling classes taking the wealth produced by the rest of us and leaving us with basically nothing, all while contributing nothing of value themselves.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6824
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Chan Island » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:58 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.

821000 households are millionaires.


Of which not all of them necessarily own anything, except maybe their own home.

But I stand corrected. 821000 households are the top 1%.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=513597&p=39401766#p39401766
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:59 am

Chan Island wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:821000 households are millionaires.


Of which not all of them necessarily own anything, except maybe their own home.

But I stand corrected. 821000 households are the top 1%.


Pretty much. They are told they are successful because they aren't subjected to landlords. That's their reward. Slightly less exploitation by the ruling class.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18661
Founded: May 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:00 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I would imagine the vast majority of them are people who just happen to have owned a house in London for a long while and it's risen in value. They might be property rich but not cash rich.


Exactly. So it's not evidence against mass robbery by the ruling classes taking the wealth produced by the rest of us and leaving us with basically nothing.

I don't think people can really be blamed for investing in property. You buy a second house, rent it out, and it all starts from there. At some point you then quit your job and become a fulltime landlord, which my Dad pretty much does now.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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The Blaatschapen
Technical Moderator
 
Posts: 63227
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:00 am

Chan Island wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that even the peak of our society is fucked over because of just has comically lopsided our society is.

The top 1% have more in common with the bottom 1% than they d0 with the top 0.1


Isn't it literally like 2000 people who own like everything? It's absolutely insane how lopsided society has become.


Arise, ye workers from your slumber,
Arise, ye prisoners of want


Sorry, old habit :blush:
The Blaatschapen should resign

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58549
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:01 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Exactly. So it's not evidence against mass robbery by the ruling classes taking the wealth produced by the rest of us and leaving us with basically nothing.

I don't think people can really be blamed for investing in property. You buy a second house, rent it out, and it all starts from there. At some point you then quit your job and become a fulltime landlord, which my Dad pretty much does now.


The system can be blamed and then they as individual can be blamed if they defend that system. I don't object to them profiting while it exists if they admit it is wrong and should change
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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