Creationism in Public Schools

[Katganistan]

Scientists can be religious without it interfering in their pursuit of science, and insisting that God is part of the process.

They can be faithful in the proper circumstance, and leave it at the door when objectively studying How Things Work. Because really, that's what science is: learning about, and explaining How Things Work. And how OTHER things MIGHT work, given what we know about how THESE things work.

When you say 'this works because religion" and there is not a quantifiable, repeatable test of that, you have ceased to be a scientist (or at least a good one) because you have decided the answer to your question before it's been tested and verified and peer reviewed.

Being religious at all is only slightly better though. Look what religion's done to embryonic stem cell research.

You can only compartmentalize your brain so much before it starts infecting the way in which one votes.

I disagree. I'm Catholic, yet that has very little to do with what I decide where others are involved. It gives me a moral set to work within, but I am still very much for birth control, abortion, physics, carbon dating, et cetera.

People don't need religion to be good people or ethical, but being religious does not mean you need to become a dumbass who sticks their fingers in their ears, closes their eyes, and goes LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO SCIENCE.

At the expense of leaving hardline-religious parents free to tell their children unopposed untruths about the beliefs and practises of other groups, turning all other faiths than their own into some kind of terrifying spectre of "otherness"...

Homeschooling is illegal now.

Where? It's legal in all 50 of the United States. I don't agree with it, but it's not been outlawed here.

[Lady Scylla]

The US Supreme Court has not allowed creation science to be taught in public schools since 1968, when it invalidated an Arkansas law that didn't allow evolution to be taught in schools (Epperson v. Arkansas). The Supreme Court continued to encourage evolution instead of creation science in Edwards v. Aguillard, in which it held teaching of creation science along with evolution to be unconstitutional. However, many scientists believe that there is more scientific evidence for creation.

Christian groups have attempted to bring creation science back into public schools since it was banned. South Carolina's House Bill 3826, while unsuccessful, proposed teaching creation science in schools. However, none of these attempts have been successful.

What do you think, NSG? Should public schools be allowed to teach creation science? Should they teach evolution and creation science? Or is creation science unconstitutional?

I think creation and evolution should both be taught equally so students in public schools can choose for themselves what they believe. Although it would be unconstitutional if only the Christian perspective is taught, other religions could also be taught.

No. Stick to evolution, if people wish to believe God is the ultimate guiding hand behind that, then fine. Otherwise, keep it out of school.

[Lady Scylla]

Scientists can be religious without it interfering in their pursuit of science, and insisting that God is part of the process.

They can be faithful in the proper circumstance, and leave it at the door when objectively studying How Things Work. Because really, that's what science is: learning about, and explaining How Things Work. And how OTHER things MIGHT work, given what we know about how THESE things work.

When you say 'this works because religion" and there is not a quantifiable, repeatable test of that, you have ceased to be a scientist (or at least a good one) because you have decided the answer to your question before it's been tested and verified and peer reviewed.

Being religious at all is only slightly better though. Look what religion's done to embryonic stem cell research.

You can only compartmentalize your brain so much before it starts infecting the way in which one votes.

Yes, research dedicated to ensuring that embryos were being used for a noble pursuit in trying to form new preventative measures against diseases instead of just being thrown out. (Of course, we don't need embryos anymore anyway to grow stemcells)

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Being religious at all is only slightly better though. Look what religion's done to embryonic stem cell research.

You can only compartmentalize your brain so much before it starts infecting the way in which one votes.

Yes, research dedicated to ensuring that embryos were being used for a noble pursuit in trying to form new preventative measures against diseases instead of just being thrown out. (Of course, we don't need embryos anymore anyway to grow stemcells)

Yes we do. Embryonic stem cells are useful for different kinds of research than adult stem cells or cord blood stem cells are.

Being religious at all is only slightly better though. Look what religion's done to embryonic stem cell research.

You can only compartmentalize your brain so much before it starts infecting the way in which one votes.

I disagree. I'm Catholic, yet that has very little to do with what I decide where others are involved. It gives me a moral set to work within, but I am still very much for birth control, abortion, physics, carbon dating, et cetera.

People don't need religion to be good people or ethical, but being religious does not mean you need to become a dumbass who sticks their fingers in their ears, closes their eyes, and goes LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO SCIENCE.

Take a look at any map of which US states are more religious.

Now look at which states elected the climate-change-denialist anti-vaxxer Trump.

Notice any pattern?

You, as an individual, being an exception, proves nothing. The pattern is what matters.

[Salandriagado]

And I call that willful ignorance as there’s evidence, tangible scientific evidence, that contradicts Genesis on several points. To harken to a myth in the face of information is rather stupid. Being religious doesn’t necessitate being blind to facts.

If they believe the Bible is true, that is their evidence.

No. Words have meanings, and "evidence" does not mean "things that I think are true".

[Salandriagado]

And a Spider-Man comic is evidence of the Green Goblin.

Spiderman was never meant to be real. No one believes it to be true. The Bible is meant to be true.

That last claim is very arguable for parts of it (as is the second: the fact that essentially all of these people are young children is rather irrelevant to the matter), but it's also utterly irrelevant to everything.

You see, you burn all the physics textbooks that God doesn’t like, and then see how thermodynamics propagates the flames.

Biology textbooks, actually.

No, you need to utterly misunderstand both, and a whole lot more besides, for creationism to not be obviously bullshit.

[Salandriagado]

Antivaxxers say hello.

To be fair, there's a huge difference between antivaxxers and creationists.

No, not really. Both are utterly incorrect, and both sets of incorrectness pose significant public health risks (the obvious in the former case, and antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the latter).

Actually, an extremist religious person can be just as dangerous if not more than an antivaxxer. Review your history classes.

Creationists are not always extremists.

Not to the degree you think.

Creationism doesn't cause disease or kill people.

Never heard of MRSA?

[Salandriagado]

You mean that religious claims are more important to them than reality.

You could say it that way. Although they would consider the Bible to be reality.

Reality is not optional. You don't get to decide what it is. Indeed, that's a fairly reasonable definition of "reality".

Creation Science isn't science it is religion. Religion doesn't belong in a science class.

Science is objective. Religion is subjective.

Science is superior to religion.

Science is what got the US to the moon fifty years ago.

[Somwhwat-Obnoxious Emojis snipped]

If you somehow find scientific evidence that 2+2=5, then it can and will be debated.

No it won't: mathematics is not science, and gives no shits about "evidence". Find a proof of that statement, and we'll simply realise that we picked the wrong axiom set, and come up with some new ones that fix the problem.

[Kowani]

Homeschooling is illegal now.

Where? It's legal in all 50 of the United States. I don't agree with it, but it's not been outlawed here.[/quote]
I meant it in a sort of tongue-in-cheek thing.

[Free Arabian Nation]

No it won't: mathematics is not science, and gives no shits about "evidence". Find a proof of that statement, and we'll simply realise that we picked the wrong axiom set, and come up with some new ones that fix the problem.

OK, I'll admit. Pretty shitty comparison.

Would a better comparison been evolution or something like that?

[Hakons]

This thread has been going on a while. There shouldn't be creationism in public schools, if only for the partisan reason of owning the fundamentalists. Young Earth Creationism is pretty bad theology.

[Neutraligon]

No it won't: mathematics is not science, and gives no shits about "evidence". Find a proof of that statement, and we'll simply realise that we picked the wrong axiom set, and come up with some new ones that fix the problem.

OK, I'll admit. Pretty shitty comparison.

Would a better comparison been evolution or something like that?

Evolution is loosely defined as the change in genome frequency over time. This is something that objectively happens. If you mean the theory of evolution, then that is also not subjective, as it is the best current explanation we have for what pieces of evidence we currently have. There is currently so much evidence supporting the theory of evolution that any future theory would have to take into account evolution and then have additional explanation power on top of that. Sorta like how Newtonian physics actually does work at certain scales and if you do the math using relativity you end up with Newtonian physics when not dealing with very fast, very big, or very small situations.

[The Free Joy State]

No it won't: mathematics is not science, and gives no shits about "evidence". Find a proof of that statement, and we'll simply realise that we picked the wrong axiom set, and come up with some new ones that fix the problem.

OK, I'll admit. Pretty shitty comparison.

Would a better comparison been evolution or something like that?

Although. this has just reminded me, the 2+2=5 thing is actually a good example for how some Bible literalist religious fundamentalists think with regards to evolution.

One pastor is on record as saying:

"If somewhere in the Bible, I were to find a passage that says 2+2=5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."

[Kowani]

OK, I'll admit. Pretty shitty comparison.

Would a better comparison been evolution or something like that?

Although. this has just reminded me, the 2+2=5 thing is actually a good example for how some Bible literalist religious fundamentalists think with regards to evolution.

One pastor is on record as saying:

"If somewhere in the Bible, I were to find a passage that says 2+2=5, I wouldn't question what I'm reading. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it."

Bet you 5 bucks it comes out to be a metaphor.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Fuck no. That's what Sunday school is for. It has no place in secular schools, dammit.

[New Legland]

This thread has been going on a while. There shouldn't be creationism in public any schools, if only for the partisan reason of owning the fundamentalists. Young Earth Creationism is pretty bad theology.

FTFY

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

I can at least sympathise with Old Earth creationists. At least they acknowledge the age of the Earth as it is. Young Earth is just going full retard.

[Maydona]

Separation of church and state also means separation of church and school.

But if we really must teach creationism then we should teach all creation myths from all the major religions not just Christianity.

[Free Arabian Nation]

Separation of church and state also means separation of church and school.

But if we really must teach creationism then we should teach all creation myths from all the major religions not just Christianity.

And, if we are, we must state that they are not factual at all.

I mean, for god's sake, the Christian God created the Earth in 7 days, The Iroquois Creation Myth has this chick and some animals putting dirt on a turtle, etc

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Pretty much all creation myths beat Christianity's. Egyptian mythology is probably the dopest of all.

[Bear Stearns]

Even most irreligious Americans could barely describe the theory of evolution in a simple paragraph. I really doubt the man on the street even knows what a hominid is.

[North German Realm]

Even most irreligious Americans could barely describe the theory of evolution in a simple paragraph. I really doubt the man on the street even knows what a hominid is.

Which is as big a failing where education is concerned as the fact there are people unironically considering the possibility that the story of Creation might be true.

[Bear Stearns]

Even most irreligious Americans could barely describe the theory of evolution in a simple paragraph. I really doubt the man on the street even knows what a hominid is.

Which is as big a failing as the fact there are people unironically considering the possibility that the story of Creation might be true.

It's not even a failing. People are naturally stupid. The amount of superstition in non-Western countries is not only astounding, but it is a fact of life.

People don't believe in evolution not because of a lack of information on it, but because they're just dumbfucks.

[North German Realm]

Which is as big a failing as the fact there are people unironically considering the possibility that the story of Creation might be true.

It's not even a failing. People are naturally stupid. The amount of superstition in non-Western countries is not only astounding, but it is a fact of life.

People don't believe in evolution not because of a lack of information on it, but because they're just dumbfucks.

Most people stop being dumbfucks when you educate them. A large reason why people in non-Western countries are superstitious, or why in Western Countries they're stupid is specifically due to poor education -either in practice or in general. If you have good education but don't force people to be educated, they'll remain dumbfucks.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

To be fair, there's a huge difference between antivaxxers and creationists.

No, not really. Both are utterly incorrect, and both sets of incorrectness pose significant public health risks (the obvious in the former case, and antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the latter).

Creationists are not always extremists.


Creationism doesn't cause disease or kill people.

Never heard of MRSA?

MRSA nothing, creationism impedes us from taking evolution into account in interpreting our thoughts, our emotions, our behaviours, our decisions, etc, etc, etc... which could probably save lives there if we relied on that instead of on "surveys" to which anyone could lie.