Malaysian jailed for 10 years for "insulting Islam"

[Neanderthaland]

A stupid law made by people so obviously in the wrong that they have to make it a crime to point it out.

[Duhon]

They wont be happy until the country is a war zone governed by an autocracy of the most vile individuals from some kind of minority, and its drained of all of its resources and they can complain about more refugees until that happens Malaysia is a "totalitarian state that needs regime change".

It would be the best for the majority Malays to be actually displaced by the Chinese and the Indians, too bad that's not what's happening, and they did everything they could to prevent that happening.

No, they can coexist as equals instead of as insecure people with a host of resentments. Someone just has to be bold enough to risk censure and jail time.

[Darussalam]

Nonsense.

Violent mobs.

(I mean Myanmar maybe qualifies, but given the country's own history with regards to its minorities, an argument can be made that the removal of the Rohingya was tribal in nature. But excepting that, we're not keen on tearing each other up that particular way.)

The second link has Muslim mob burning down Buddhist temples because the court isn't zealous enough to immediately prosecute a Chinese woman for complaining about the prayer call being too loud.

[Duhon]

Violent mobs.

(I mean Myanmar maybe qualifies, but given the country's own history with regards to its minorities, an argument can be made that the removal of the Rohingya was tribal in nature. But excepting that, we're not keen on tearing each other up that particular way.)

The second link has Muslim mob burning down Buddhist temples because the court isn't zealous enough to immediately prosecute a Chinese woman for complaining about the prayer call being too loud.

More to do with the woman being Chinese than her being Buddhist, imo. Sinophobia runs real strong there, unfortunately.

[Flawless Walruses]

More to do with the woman being Chinese than her being Buddhist, imo. Sinophobia runs real strong there, unfortunately.

Xenophobia of all kinds runs real strong there. Its also artificial and intellectually dishonest.

"Bumiputra" is a made-up identity that equates Peninsular Malay with the Iban and Dayaks of Borneo. The cultures, languages and religious practices of the communities are quite alien to each other, but this is officially pretended away.

Being Bumiputra means you can legally own agricultural land. Being Bumiputra means you can legally start a corporation as sole owner. Bumiputra means you get preference at university. Bumiputra means if you fail at everything you still win a government job.

Islam in Malaysia means you get free time out of work to sit with your forehead on the floor and your brain in neutral. No other benefits.

Malaysia is far more institutionally racist than it is institutionally bigoted. Chinese, Tamil or European-Malaysians who convert to Islam are still not Bumiputra.

[Duhon]

If only they can pretend away their differences with the other minorities they have, that would be good.

[Flawless Walruses]

If only they can pretend away their differences with the other minorities they have, that would be good.

It would.

Unfortunately, that would mean sharing the privileges, and the Malay are not ready for that.

Blasphemy laws are just a small, small part of the awful that is Malaysia's government.

[Darussalam]

If only they can pretend away their differences with the other minorities they have, that would be good.

And herein lies the problem with many Malaysian liberals: they think racial differences and ethnic conflicts will dissipate away under democratic liberalism, or if politicians just tell the masses to be tolerant as hard and as often as possible. I'm afraid that doesn't work under any nation with a market-dominant minority - where the dominant emotional response of the majority is resentment, not contempt. Genocides are generally launched on the basis of resentment, not contempt.

Concessions of racial and religious privileges to Malay Muslims are an essential social contract in Malaysia. I make no pretense that it's their birthright or whatever - it's just what they demanded, might as well actually formalize it. It's easy to phase out racial discrimination in countries with market-dominant majority - contempt isn't as explosive as resentment.

[Estanglia]

So basically were going to punish people because a few people got triggered? Great. Dude if you can't handle me insulting something sacred grow a pair.

If you don't want religious people to get angry, don't insult the sacred. Legal punishment is merely a social expression of collective anger.

Fuck 'em. Anger is justified as long as it's not disproportionate. Ten years certainly isn't justified because your feelings were hurt.

We shouldn't give in because some people can't take others insulting them, which is entirely on them.

Insulting religion is not inciting violence. I think most religious folk are mature enough to handle insults without throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old.

If I called your mother a whore and said that your real father is some guy your mother had an affair with, I'd imagine you'd "throw a temper tantrum."

Yeah. But the person who did it wouldn't get locked up for a decade.

And if I punched him, I'd be the one in trouble. You don't get to escalate things because you have thin skin.

And if that society wants to jail someone for insulting religion than I think that society needs to change because jailing someone for insulting religion is oppressive as hell.


Yes and if I lashed out physically or had you jailed I would be in the wrong. Getting offended at something is not a good reason to jail someone.

I think if I said that about your mother, you would have every right to beat me up.

He wouldn't.

This isn't a bad thing. Blasphemy is EVIL and I don't care about Free Speech as long as there are blasphemers. However, Islam is false so I would only want this in the west so that it is used to punish those who insult Catholicism.

Nah. I'll say whatever the fuck I want about your religion.

Yes and if I lashed out physically or had you jailed I would be in the wrong. Getting offended at something is not a good reason to jail someone.

This is not merely a matter of people being offended; it is a matter of maintaining social stability. The good of society as a whole outweighs the the selfish whims of the individual.

If your society is so weak it requires these laws, your society is flawed and should be replaced.

So basically we can't say anything bad about your religion now?

Ideally you wouldn't be allowed to.

If you're being satirical you should know that it's usually more Protestants who think like this, not Catholics. At least in my experience.

I'm not being satirical, and I'm aware - sadly. There are far too many self described Catholics that care more about being accepted by society than promoting the truth. Blasphemy is a moral evil.

You aren't above criticism or insults.

The Malaysian government did nothing wrong

It did a lot of things wrong.

It wouldn't be the first democracy to be authoritarian.

It doesn't matter what it is, the government has a right to do what it does and no one has the right to stop them.

This argument is dumb. You do not get the right to do something just because you ain't everybody else. That argument can be used to justify all sorts of shit.

I have no interest in actually doing so.

But it is just funny to watch you pretend as if Malaysia is invincible.

They're a puny and insignificant authoritarian shitfest.

Do you know what Guerilla warfare is?

Can't Guerilla warfare if you got no jungle to hide in.

[Major-Tom]

Jesus Christ, I thought Malaysia was on the path to reform after their semi-recent elections. Was unaware that Malaysia's government, too, has the same theocratic and backwards tendencies as a government such as Iran's or Pakistan's.

It's especially surprising given what I understand about the Malaysian populace, many of whom are Muslim but lean towards relative secular approaches as it relates to ideologies and cultural attitudes (within the context of still being a religious country).

[Czechostria]

They are scared of the infidel rising up against them, long live Radovan Karadžić!

Freedom for humans.

[Baltenstein]

They are scared of the infidel rising up against them, long live Radovan Karadžić!

Truly the one and only answer to religious intolerance: genocidal ultranationalism.

You win, sir. You win.

[Czechostria]

They are scared of the infidel rising up against them, long live Radovan Karadžić!

Truly the one and only answer to religious intolerance: genocidal ultranationalism.

You win, sir. You win.

They want to eat your children and women, remove kebab.

[New Bremerton]

If only they can pretend away their differences with the other minorities they have, that would be good.

And herein lies the problem with many Malaysian liberals: they think racial differences and ethnic conflicts will dissipate away under democratic liberalism, or if politicians just tell the masses to be tolerant as hard and as often as possible. I'm afraid that doesn't work under any nation with a market-dominant minority - where the dominant emotional response of the majority is resentment, not contempt. Genocides are generally launched on the basis of resentment, not contempt.

Concessions of racial and religious privileges to Malay Muslims are an essential social contract in Malaysia. I make no pretense that it's their birthright or whatever - it's just what they demanded, might as well actually formalize it. It's easy to phase out racial discrimination in countries with market-dominant majority - contempt isn't as explosive as resentment.

You paint a very bleak and depressing picture indeed. Overseas Chinese are basically the Jews and scapegoats of Southeast Asia, and instead of trying to emulate our success, the non-Chinese majorities are jealous of it to the point of conducting pogroms against us. This is in spite of the fact that there are many poor Chinese and particularly Indians who receive absolutely no support from the Malaysian government. If anyone should be resentful, it's the poor Chinese and Indians, not the Malays. That's the racial component that most people commenting on this thread have largely overlooked. But according to the Malaysian Constitution, all Malays are Muslims by definition, so there is a kind of forced intersectionality at play here. The issue of Islamic intolerance is virtually inseparable from that of Malay racism. The intolerant, orthodox version of Sunni Islam long practiced in the Middle East and promoted by Saudi Arabia has steadily infiltrated the Malaysian Muslim psyche in recent years to everyone's detriment, and this has only served to exacerbate our continued humiliation at the hands of a racist and intolerant Malay-Muslim majority.

Personally, I think Muslims, the vast majority of them at least in the Muslim world, demand and receive too much sympathy from the rest of the world and give nothing back in return except for yet more intolerance, violence and outright bigotry toward those they deem the other. I have already expressed my sympathies and condolences for the victims of the NZ terror attacks on a different thread and outside of NS and refrained from whataboutisms, but now I feel used partly because of that. Used and guilt-tripped by both Muslims and leftists sympathetic to Muslims in general. It just feels like pointless virtue signaling to me after a little while.

In Muslim countries such as Malaysia, Muslims are able to get away with persecuting non-Muslim minorities and other Muslims belonging to the wrong sect with near-impunity unless their name is ISIS. In the West, they are able to successfully dupe their hosts into believing they are perpetual victims of "Islamophobia", whether they're actually victims or not, and the Left, exemplified by such groups as Amnesty International and the British Labour Party, gullibly laps up this false victimhood narrative and readily obliges by throwing Jews, ex-Muslim atheists and other non-Muslim minorities and critics of Islam under the bus in countless instances. Muslims living in the West have never had it better, and they should be grateful for what they have instead of biting the hand that feeds them.

With respect to Malays as a race as opposed to Malaysian Muslims as a religious group, the racist, Malay supremacist opposition party (UMNO) and its fascist supporters continue to exert considerable influence over the so-called moderate government. The race riots of 1969 are vaguely reminiscent of the hostilities between Jews and Arabs between 1945-1948, except the Jews won and gained a state, whereas the fascist Malaysian government chose to side with the Malays and subjugate and massacre ethnic Chinese. It's a miracle we weren't exterminated outright.

But Malaysia in 2019 is not Malaysia in 1969. 50 years and a rising standard of living even for Malays and Muslims should be long enough for things to change for the better. Surely non-Malays and non-Muslims should be able to rise up in force and push back against the racism and religious intolerance that has plagued Malaysia for decades and succeed this time around. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat for a white person. Why should we non-Muslims continue to concede to these Muslim fascists any longer? The feeling of resentment is mutual. I also blame the British for this sorry state of affairs. They were the ones who left us in this mess in the first place with their colonial practice of divide & conquer.

If anything, the new Malaysian government, for all its talk of moderation and respect for racial and religious diversity, should be ruthlessly cracking down on the Malay racists and Muslim extremists who would riot over a cartoon or a book burning instead of continuing to show weakness and virtue signaling their support for Malay privileges, the special status of the Malay language, the rulers (sultans and raja) and the sanctity of Islam. This is how you fight violent fascists. With direct action. Not appeasement and jail terms for the victims of said intolerance. Surely the government is strong enough to withstand domestic unrest and if need be, request foreign assistance i.e. from the U.S. If Malaysia wants to stamp out religious intolerance and allow complete and unfettered freedom of expression, it can do just that almost overnight. There is no excuse. Abolishing the unfair and one-sided social contract will take longer, and economic development should be the main priority. I'm prepared to wait in that case, as long as my freedom of speech isn't infringed in any way.

[Thermodolia]

Insulting religion is not inciting violence. I think most religious folk are mature enough to handle insults without throwing a temper tantrum like a 5 year old.

If I called your mother a whore and said that your real father is some guy your mother had an affair with, I'd imagine you'd "throw a temper tantrum."

I wouldn’t.

[Scomagia]

Islam deserves to be criticized and sometimes insulted, just like anything else people cling to strongly.

[Katganistan]

Truly the one and only answer to religious intolerance: genocidal ultranationalism.

You win, sir. You win.

They want to eat your children and women, remove kebab.

*** Two week ban for trolling ***
You're not learning, Czechosia/Czechhostria.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Violent mobs.

(I mean Myanmar maybe qualifies, but given the country's own history with regards to its minorities, an argument can be made that the removal of the Rohingya was tribal in nature. But excepting that, we're not keen on tearing each other up that particular way.)

The second link has Muslim mob burning down Buddhist temples because the court isn't zealous enough to immediately prosecute a Chinese woman for complaining about the prayer call being too loud.

Sounds like standard radical Islam. No wonder why people don't want too much of it in Europe.

[Flawless Walruses]

If only they can pretend away their differences with the other minorities they have, that would be good.

And herein lies the problem with many Malaysian liberals: they think racial differences and ethnic conflicts will dissipate away under democratic liberalism, or if politicians just tell the masses to be tolerant as hard and as often as possible. I'm afraid that doesn't work under any nation with a market-dominant minority - where the dominant emotional response of the majority is resentment, not contempt. Genocides are generally launched on the basis of resentment, not contempt.

Concessions of racial and religious privileges to Malay Muslims are an essential social contract in Malaysia. I make no pretense that it's their birthright or whatever - it's just what they demanded, might as well actually formalize it. It's easy to phase out racial discrimination in countries with market-dominant majority - contempt isn't as explosive as resentment.

Unfortunately accurate analysis

And herein lies the problem with many Malaysian liberals: they think racial differences and ethnic conflicts will dissipate away under democratic liberalism, or if politicians just tell the masses to be tolerant as hard and as often as possible. I'm afraid that doesn't work under any nation with a market-dominant minority - where the dominant emotional response of the majority is resentment, not contempt. Genocides are generally launched on the basis of resentment, not contempt.

Concessions of racial and religious privileges to Malay Muslims are an essential social contract in Malaysia. I make no pretense that it's their birthright or whatever - it's just what they demanded, might as well actually formalize it. It's easy to phase out racial discrimination in countries with market-dominant majority - contempt isn't as explosive as resentment.

You paint a very bleak and depressing picture indeed. Overseas Chinese are basically the Jews and scapegoats of Southeast Asia, and instead of trying to emulate our success, the non-Chinese majorities are jealous of it to the point of conducting pogroms against us. This is in spite of the fact that there are many poor Chinese and particularly Indians who receive absolutely no support from the Malaysian government. If anyone should be resentful, it's the poor Chinese and Indians, not the Malays.

The poorest Chinese were resentful and gave guerilla warfare a try - [url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency[/url].

The British and Australian armies spent over a decade suppressing it, successfully. Guerilla warfare only works when you have a foreign sponsor willing and able to dollar-for-dollar match the conventional army's budget, despite what conventional wisdom on these boards says.

The feeling of resentment is mutual. I also blame the British for this sorry state of affairs. They were the ones who left us in this mess in the first place with their colonial practice of divide & conquer.

You are correct to do so, though divide and conquer doesn't come into it. The British Colonial Office pioneered Malay Nationalism, as a way to streamline their administration and make their jobs easier. Pre-Britain, the squabbling Malay Sultanates couldn't stop backstabbing each other even in the face of foreign invasion, like Pattani by Thailand in 1911.

It was the need to develop the oil fields at Miru that led them to deviate from this policy. As the British writer Aldous Huxley observed in 1925, without Chinese to do the work, British Imperialism in Malaysia could be imperialism only of the most paternalistic and nominal kind.

Still true of Malaysia today,

That's the racial component that most people commenting on this thread have largely overlooked.

Agree. The power structure in Malaysia has more in common with apartheid South Africa than with say Pakistan. Muslims who are not also "Bumiputra" get no privileges.

Personally, I think Muslims, the vast majority of them at least in the Muslim world, demand and receive too much sympathy from the rest of the world and give nothing back in return except for yet more intolerance, violence and outright bigotry toward those they deem the other.
*snip*

That is you, buying into UMNO's religious framing.

Islam explicitly forbids discriminating against "brothers" based on race.

Yet in Malaysia, a Christian Malay has far more rights than a Muslim Chinese.

The second link has Muslim mob burning down Buddhist temples because the court isn't zealous enough to immediately prosecute a Chinese woman for complaining about the prayer call being too loud.

Sounds like standard radical Islam. No wonder why people don't want too much of it in Europe.

Most Malay wouldn't know the Quran from a phone book. That's why they like buying Qurans in Arabic, no one could expect them to read it.

[Cedoria]

Dear Malaysia:

Please stop jailing people on the basis of presumed insults against fictional characters.

Thanks.

Sincerely

Everyone sensible

[Samudera Darussalam]

Sounds like standard radical Islam. No wonder why people don't want too much of it in Europe.

Rather than radical Islam, it's more like the close-minded attitude of the people there. It's just unfortunate that the woman who complained happened to be a Christian Chinese, that made the mobs found the target to focus their anger easily. Complete nonsense and quite regrettable actually, as it can be solved in a civilized way had the people acted based not on their emotion.

Overseas Chinese are basically the Jews and scapegoats of Southeast Asia, and instead of trying to emulate....(snip)

Yes, unfortunately, that happened there. However, not all the resentment "natives" had towards the Chinese are descended from jealousy, but some are also descended from the feelings that they are mistreated by their Chinese bosses or partners at work. I have no idea about Malaysia, but in Indonesia, that is, from what I heard. I'm sorry if it seems like victim-blamings, but I also feel sorry for them because of what they had to endure. The government and society in general are indeed at faults at this, but a very small minority of Chinese does give a bad image to the community as a whole.

[Darussalam]

You paint a very bleak and depressing picture indeed. Overseas Chinese are basically the Jews and scapegoats of Southeast Asia, and instead of trying to emulate our success, the non-Chinese majorities are jealous of it to the point of conducting pogroms against us. This is in spite of the fact that there are many poor Chinese and particularly Indians who receive absolutely no support from the Malaysian government. If anyone should be resentful, it's the poor Chinese and Indians, not the Malays. That's the racial component that most people commenting on this thread have largely overlooked. But according to the Malaysian Constitution, all Malays are Muslims by definition, so there is a kind of forced intersectionality at play here. The issue of Islamic intolerance is virtually inseparable from that of Malay racism. The intolerant, orthodox version of Sunni Islam long practiced in the Middle East and promoted by Saudi Arabia has steadily infiltrated the Malaysian Muslim psyche in recent years to everyone's detriment, and this has only served to exacerbate our continued humiliation at the hands of a racist and intolerant Malay-Muslim majority.

Personally, I think Muslims, the vast majority of them at least in the Muslim world, demand and receive too much sympathy from the rest of the world and give nothing back in return except for yet more intolerance, violence and outright bigotry toward those they deem the other. I have already expressed my sympathies and condolences for the victims of the NZ terror attacks on a different thread and outside of NS and refrained from whataboutisms, but now I feel used partly because of that. Used and guilt-tripped by both Muslims and leftists sympathetic to Muslims in general. It just feels like pointless virtue signaling to me after a little while.

In Muslim countries such as Malaysia, Muslims are able to get away with persecuting non-Muslim minorities and other Muslims belonging to the wrong sect with near-impunity unless their name is ISIS. In the West, they are able to successfully dupe their hosts into believing they are perpetual victims of "Islamophobia", whether they're actually victims or not, and the Left, exemplified by such groups as Amnesty International and the British Labour Party, gullibly laps up this false victimhood narrative and readily obliges by throwing Jews, ex-Muslim atheists and other non-Muslim minorities and critics of Islam under the bus in countless instances. Muslims living in the West have never had it better, and they should be grateful for what they have instead of biting the hand that feeds them.

With respect to Malays as a race as opposed to Malaysian Muslims as a religious group, the racist, Malay supremacist opposition party (UMNO) and its fascist supporters continue to exert considerable influence over the so-called moderate government. The race riots of 1969 are vaguely reminiscent of the hostilities between Jews and Arabs between 1945-1948, except the Jews won and gained a state, whereas the fascist Malaysian government chose to side with the Malays and subjugate and massacre ethnic Chinese. It's a miracle we weren't exterminated outright.

But Malaysia in 2019 is not Malaysia in 1969. 50 years and a rising standard of living even for Malays and Muslims should be long enough for things to change for the better. Surely non-Malays and non-Muslims should be able to rise up in force and push back against the racism and religious intolerance that has plagued Malaysia for decades and succeed this time around. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat for a white person. Why should we non-Muslims continue to concede to these Muslim fascists any longer? The feeling of resentment is mutual. I also blame the British for this sorry state of affairs. They were the ones who left us in this mess in the first place with their colonial practice of divide & conquer.

If anything, the new Malaysian government, for all its talk of moderation and respect for racial and religious diversity, should be ruthlessly cracking down on the Malay racists and Muslim extremists who would riot over a cartoon or a book burning instead of continuing to show weakness and virtue signaling their support for Malay privileges, the special status of the Malay language, the rulers (sultans and raja) and the sanctity of Islam. This is how you fight violent fascists. With direct action. Not appeasement and jail terms for the victims of said intolerance. Surely the government is strong enough to withstand domestic unrest and if need be, request foreign assistance i.e. from the U.S. If Malaysia wants to stamp out religious intolerance and allow complete and unfettered freedom of expression, it can do just that almost overnight. There is no excuse. Abolishing the unfair and one-sided social contract will take longer, and economic development should be the main priority. I'm prepared to wait in that case, as long as my freedom of speech isn't infringed in any way.

Pakatan is fundamentally a populist movement. Like any other populist movement, it doesn't have a clear policy goal or sustainable campaign promises - you will see them falling back to Malay-bootlicking when their programs are revealed to be a sham and they're falling short of promising them.

The pragmatic case for racial harmony is the case of bribery. It's clear that the Bumiputera are beneficiaries of growth driven by non-natives, who comprised a disproportionately large number of taxpayers. Without them, Malaysia won't be nearly three times richer than Indonesia and Malays won't be two times richer as Indonesians. Non-native human capital is an important leverage - in exchange of affirmative action and religious ordinances, non-natives enjoy economic freedom and relative prosperity. And if they don't like it they could leave, as many Malaysian Chinese (~1 million) did. They're not getting worse off from leaving, Malays did. That is the underlying logic of Ketuanan Melayu, and while it's probably not ideal, I don't think forced liberalization is any better.

[New Bremerton]

What I find even sadder is that there are many non-Malays and non-Muslims who, while they feel that 10 years for insulting Islam is excessive, would like the same law to be applied to those who insult other religions as well, similar to how it is in Singapore. They are part of the problem too. They will do anything to rationalize their persecution away for fear of another racial riot. It's basically a kind of collective Stockholm Syndrome driven solely by a fear for their very lives, even if they are loathe to admit it. It just goes to prove my point that Malaysia is a nation of violent, intolerant bigots, almost all of them Malay and Muslim, who will stop at nothing to threaten minorities with death or jail time. And Amnesty doesn't bat an eyelid. The rights of terrorists matter more to them than free speech and racial equality of the Malaysian kind.