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LWDT 7: The Earth and Heavens Tremble.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Book on Leftist Ideology is Your Preferred Book?

The Communist Manifesto (Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels)
23
18%
The Conquest of Bread (Peter Kropotkin)
24
19%
Das Kapital (Karl Marx)
21
16%
What is Property? (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
2
2%
Guerilla Warfare (Che Guevara)
8
6%
Mutual Aid (Peter Kropotkin)
2
2%
Profit Over People (Noam Chomsky)
4
3%
The Ego and Its Own (Max Stirner)
8
6%
Debt: The First 5,000 Years (David Graeber)
5
4%
Other (Please Explain)
32
25%
 
Total votes : 129

User avatar
Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9762
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:27 pm

Kowani wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:It's because their ideology is pointless. "Muh Freedom"

But why freedom?

Freedom is of no inherent value.


Image
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No, I said, restricting money from being donated to public officials does not contradict my view of freedom.

Ah, okay. Then I'd say that we have different definitions, perhaps, of freedom.

Mine is personal and economic autonomy as much as humanly and reasonably possible. I just have a more anti-corruption attitude to politics, as I know megadoners create a system of cronyism.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26030
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Kowani wrote:Yay. :p

You should be the next OP.

By Satan, no! lol2:

Chernoslavia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Freedom is of no inherent value.


Image

Compelling.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

Take nothing I say seriously, unless there is a link.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:30 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Ah, okay. Then I'd say that we have different definitions, perhaps, of freedom.

Mine is personal and economic autonomy as much as humanly and reasonably possible. I just have a more anti-corruption attitude to politics, as I know megadoners create a system of cronyism.

Doesn't that "as much as possible" run into your opinion on money in politics?
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8291
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:31 pm

So who's the OP of LWDT VIII?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:31 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So who's the OP of LWDT VIII?

I vote Kowani
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Mine is personal and economic autonomy as much as humanly and reasonably possible. I just have a more anti-corruption attitude to politics, as I know megadoners create a system of cronyism.

Doesn't that "as much as possible" run into your opinion on money in politics?

Not in my case. I said "humanly and reasonably possible," I don't think having a system run by megadoners is reasonable. It is just legalized corruption.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9762
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Kowani wrote:

Compelling.[/quote]

Likewise.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37950
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:32 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Ah, okay. Then I'd say that we have different definitions, perhaps, of freedom.

Mine is personal and economic autonomy as much as humanly and reasonably possible. I just have a more anti-corruption attitude to politics, as I know megadoners create a system of cronyism.

That's an oxymoron.

You can't have total economic autonomy while also disallowing politicians from getting funded by megadonors. They're spending and making money how they choose to.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:33 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So who's the OP of LWDT VIII?

I vote Kowani


I also vote Kowani o/
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:33 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Doesn't that "as much as possible" run into your opinion on money in politics?

Not in my case. I said "humanly and reasonably possible," I don't think having a system run by megadoners is reasonable. It is just legalized corruption.

What if I were to shift my definition of "reasonable" further south, so to speak? Would that be, in your mind, acceptable?
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:34 pm

New haven america wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Mine is personal and economic autonomy as much as humanly and reasonably possible. I just have a more anti-corruption attitude to politics, as I know megadoners create a system of cronyism.

That's an oxymoron.

You can't have total economic autonomy while also disallowing politicians from getting funded by megadonors. They're spending and making money how they choose to.

Alright, that is one of my only restrictions on economic autonomy. Sue me for using imperfect language. :p
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26030
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:34 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So who's the OP of LWDT VIII?

I vote Kowani

Noppetty nope nope.


Torrocca wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:I vote Kowani


I also vote Kowani o/

Not happening.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

Take nothing I say seriously, unless there is a link.

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37950
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
New haven america wrote:That's an oxymoron.

You can't have total economic autonomy while also disallowing politicians from getting funded by megadonors. They're spending and making money how they choose to.

Alright, that is one of my only restrictions on economic autonomy. Sue me for using imperfect language. :p

I will.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26030
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:37 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Compelling.


Likewise.

Well, Xeno knows my views on freedom. I see no reason to bore her explaining everything again.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

Take nothing I say seriously, unless there is a link.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:37 pm

Kowani wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:I vote Kowani

Noppetty nope nope.


Torrocca wrote:
I also vote Kowani o/

Not happening.


Ah, shit, our next OP's not accepting the outcome of our spontaneous electoral system of governance. It's time for a revolution against this blatant display of tyranny!
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37950
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:37 pm

I vote for Kowani.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26030
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Kowani wrote:Noppetty nope nope.



Not happening.


Ah, shit, our next OP's not accepting the outcome of our spontaneous electoral system of governance. It's time for a revolution against this blatant display of tyranny!

If I’m doing it, nobody complain about how absolutely crappy it turns out.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

Take nothing I say seriously, unless there is a link.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:38 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Not in my case. I said "humanly and reasonably possible," I don't think having a system run by megadoners is reasonable. It is just legalized corruption.

What if I were to shift my definition of "reasonable" further south, so to speak? Would that be, in your mind, acceptable?

I don't know what you view as reasonable. Maybe or maybe not. Either way, I don't support megadoners controlling politics and I support restrictions on donations as a result, and if my language is imprecise, I'll fix it.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9762
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:39 pm

Kowani wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Likewise.

Well, Xeno knows my views on freedom. I see no reason to bore her explaining everything again.

Who..?
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37950
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:40 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:What if I were to shift my definition of "reasonable" further south, so to speak? Would that be, in your mind, acceptable?

I don't know what you view as reasonable. Maybe or maybe not. Either way, I don't support megadoners controlling politics and I support restrictions on donations as a result, and if my language is imprecise, I'll fix it.

Why?

They're not controlling politics, they're simply spending their money as they please, as private citizens are allowed to do.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

User avatar
Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26030
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:41 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Well, Xeno knows my views on freedom. I see no reason to bore her explaining everything again.

Who..?

…Actually, that should say Jean Paul Sartre. My bad.

But the point remains.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

Take nothing I say seriously, unless there is a link.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:41 pm

Kowani wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Ah, shit, our next OP's not accepting the outcome of our spontaneous electoral system of governance. It's time for a revolution against this blatant display of tyranny!

If I’m doing it, nobody complain about how absolutely crappy it turns out.

I'm thinking of quoting Torrocca into a new thread OP as a temp OP, and editing out the finer points of a new OP later. Assuming no one else wants to be OP.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:42 pm

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=470883

Suggestions for the OP title/poll/whatever are welcome there. I'm also comfortable with the OP being transferred to someone else.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Goodnight thread.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

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