Right Wing Discussion Thread XV: A New Hoppe

[Salus Maior]

They don't really get a say in that. And again, not everyone always knows if the war is unjust at the outset, let alone the soldiers themselves.

They absolutely do get a say in that, they can refuse to follow orders.

The second part sounds like it's giving too much credence to moral subjectivism. It sounds too much like "a war is just if my government thinks it's just."

I'm not saying it's just, I'm saying you can't lay a ton of blame on the soldiers which is a pretty common theme with me. Because they didn't know what they were doing.

This may not absolve them of sin, but the sin of the war itself I would say lies with the people who knew it was unjustified and deceived people into fighting it for them.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

First things first, actually learn where US states are located.

US states are as big as European countries. Even tiny Rhode Island is of comparable size and Alaska is much larger than many. Basic knowledge of the locations should be commonplace for many people here.

If you’re American and can’t label two thirds of a map of the states, you’ve obviously missed something.

[United Muscovite Nations]

They absolutely do get a say in that, they can refuse to follow orders.

The second part sounds like it's giving too much credence to moral subjectivism. It sounds too much like "a war is just if my government thinks it's just."

I'm not saying it's just, I'm saying you can't lay a ton of blame on the soldiers which is a pretty common theme with me. Because they didn't know what they were doing.

This may not absolve them of sin, but the sin of the war itself I would say lies with the people who knew it was unjustified and deceived people into fighting it for them.

And if they do know the war is unjust and being fought on false pretenses?

[Salus Maior]

I'm not saying it's just, I'm saying you can't lay a ton of blame on the soldiers which is a pretty common theme with me. Because they didn't know what they were doing.

This may not absolve them of sin, but the sin of the war itself I would say lies with the people who knew it was unjustified and deceived people into fighting it for them.

And if they do know the war is unjust and being fought on false pretenses?

Then I would say that most people wouldn't fight for it. Or would at least strongly object.

Because that's a typical human response, people don't want to die for a false cause.

[Novus America]

It is more complicated than that. I am not sure you are aware of how war works.

How is it more complicated than that? When you cross the border of a country you're invading that poses no threat, you're attacking that country.

See soldiers are not given so broad orders as “attack that country”.
Serving in the military is definitely complicated and raises complicated questions.

You seem to want to reduce everything to a simple black vs white dichotomy.
But the real world is more complicated than that.

[United Muscovite Nations]

How is it more complicated than that? When you cross the border of a country you're invading that poses no threat, you're attacking that country.

See soldiers are not given so broad orders as “attack that country”.
Serving in the military is definitely complicated and raises complicated questions.

You seem to want to reduce everything to a simple black vs white dichotomy.
But the real world is more complicated than that.

The specific orders ultimately boil down generally to the larger operation, which is attacking the country.

[Novus America]

See soldiers are not given so broad orders as “attack that country”.
Serving in the military is definitely complicated and raises complicated questions.

You seem to want to reduce everything to a simple black vs white dichotomy.
But the real world is more complicated than that.

The specific orders ultimately boil down generally to the larger operation, which is attacking the country.

No, they do not. It does not work that way.
I know you struggle with the idea perhaps, but the world is complicated.
Right vs wrong is not always an easy and obvious thing.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The specific orders ultimately boil down generally to the larger operation, which is attacking the country.

No, they do not. It does not work that way.
I know you struggle with the idea perhaps, but the world is complicated.
Right vs wrong is not always an easy and obvious thing.

How do they not boil down to that? Give an example of an order carried out in the invasion of a country that wouldn't have to do with carrying out the invasion of that country.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

The specific orders ultimately boil down generally to the larger operation, which is attacking the country.

No, they do not. It does not work that way.
I know you struggle with the idea perhaps, but the world is complicated.
Right vs wrong is not always an easy and obvious thing.

It might not be easy but it is always clear.

[Novus America]

No, they do not. It does not work that way.
I know you struggle with the idea perhaps, but the world is complicated.
Right vs wrong is not always an easy and obvious thing.

How do they not boil down to that? Give an example of an order carried out in the invasion of a country that wouldn't have to do with carrying out the invasion of that country.

Having to do with something is not necessarily the same as the greater idea. Again these are very complicated things questions with very complicated answers. Whole books are written on this.

You cannot reduce something this complicated to single tweet like sentences.

[Proctopeo]

So I decided, based on an earlier hypothetical, to run a game of Europa Universalis IV with our different societies as custom nations with their own heads of state, traditions, and forms of government based on each person's ideals. Because Conserative Morality would want to resurrect the ideals of the Republic and demonize its enemies, his form of government is American Republic, while the more militant and autocratic Oil Exporting Peoples runs a tribal despotist state.

The only thing I regret is that certain government types (regardless of whether I play the custom nation) are locked off. I couldn't make my own a daimyo because it wasn't located in Japan, and while I wanted to give Fahran and WRA's Firearms Association the government type “Pirate Republic,” it wouldn't let me through a lack of DLC. But it's a minor gripe at worst.

For once, Genivaria, you were included. Bad news: in Florida.

(Image)

This was just a test run, hence why I didn't include a lot of people, and why their nations aren't all in the right place. First things first, actually learn where US states are located.

Cool shit, Hana.

I want to be in Iowa.

[Kowani]

No, they do not. It does not work that way.
I know you struggle with the idea perhaps, but the world is complicated.
Right vs wrong is not always an easy and obvious thing.

It might not be easy but it is always clear.

This is literally fake news.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

It might not be easy but it is always clear.

This is literally fake news.

You are an amoral unbeliever

[Kowani]

This is literally fake news.

You are an amoral unbeliever

Any particular point you wanted to make, or did you just wanna sound like a Memri TV screenshot?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

This is literally fake news.

You are an amoral unbeliever

That's awfully rude.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You are an amoral unbeliever

Any particular point you wanted to make, or did you just wanna sound like a Memri TV screenshot?

Firstly, I will not allow anyone to say "Immanuel Kant" without the title of sheikh.

[Kowani]

Any particular point you wanted to make, or did you just wanna sound like a Memri TV screenshot?

Firstly, I will not allow anyone to say "Immanuel Kant" without the title of sheikh.

Well done, sir.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Firstly, I will not allow anyone to say "Immanuel Kant" without the title of sheikh.

Well done, sir.

Inshallah, come back here, I will make the Categorical Imperative look like a joke.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

This is literally fake news.

You are an amoral unbeliever

Not being a believer in Islam is actually a good thing.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

You are an amoral unbeliever

Not being a believer in Islam is actually a good thing.

It is not very accomodating to making a buffet out of your beliefs and morals, true.

[Yusseria]

Conscription doesn't automatically make people for bloodthirsty or jingoistic. That's a faulty and easily disprovable assumption.

I never said it did.

Almost like people won't mindlessly support any war.

And I never said they would, either.

You certainly seemed to insinuate it before with your drone comment. Don't backpedal now.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Not being a believer in Islam is actually a good thing.

It is not very accomodating to making a buffet out of your beliefs and morals, true.

What's wrong with picking and choosing various beliefs from various belief systems?

[Novus America]

This is literally fake news.

You are an amoral unbeliever

One can be an “unbeliever” in your system of belief without being amoral.

In fact I would argue your beliefs are not amoral of course, but rather immoral.

[Torrocca]

I never said it did.



And I never said they would, either.

You certainly seemed to insinuate it before with your drone comment. Don't backpedal now.

Evidently, when I said drone, I wasn't referring to the physical machine that launches missiles, but instead referring to people as mindless toys of the state.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

The only obligation should be taxes.

This.

^This

So their obligation is the same as non-citizens.

If an immigrant pays their taxes and follows the law, I see no reason not to let them become a citizen.

^This

the guy was trying to convince me to support Islamic orthodoxy (AKA Islamism) because I support Catholic orthodoxy.

Jiminy wasn't trying to convince you to support that, he was just explaining it.

You realize I'm speaking against Sharia slavery, right?

It is a shame Christians didn't regulate slavery as well.

Salus Maior said that the Bible says to treat slaves how you'd want to be treated.

So, then, killing in an unjust war is wrong, and there is good reason to object to conscription on those grounds.

Conscription.doesn't accord with the Qur'an or the Sunnah, and I consider it wrong

Can you show me where? I tried finding some stuff about that but couldn't.

Yeah instead they regulated it out of existence, I can actually criticize the Atlantic Slave Trade but you can't say shit.

Al-Islam has also banned slavery.

Where?

The irony here is so thick it has it's own gravity field.

But it isn't. Most points that are differed in Islamic fiqh are very minor details with most Muslims seeing multiple approaches as valid.

Until you into Sunni vs Shi'a vs IbaaDi

So I decided, based on an earlier hypothetical, to run a game of Europa Universalis IV with our different societies as custom nations with their own heads of state, traditions, and forms of government based on each person's ideals. Because Conserative Morality would want to resurrect the ideals of the Republic and demonize its enemies, his form of government is American Republic, while the more militant and autocratic Oil Exporting Peoples runs a tribal despotist state.

The only thing I regret is that certain government types (regardless of whether I play the custom nation) are locked off. I couldn't make my own a daimyo because it wasn't located in Japan, and while I wanted to give Fahran and WRA's Firearms Association the government type “Pirate Republic,” it wouldn't let me through a lack of DLC. But it's a minor gripe at worst.

For once, Genivaria, you were included. Bad news: in Florida.

(Image)

This was just a test run, hence why I didn't include a lot of people, and why their nations aren't all in the right place. First things first, actually learn where US states are located.

Cool s*it, Hana.

I want to be in Iowa.

I want North Carolina.