La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Frievolk]

Something, something tells me that Civil War is coming. And I wonder if the Russians and Iranians would help Venezuela quell this "insurgency" as they would dub it.

Iran can barely contain its own problems right now and is getting BTFO'd day and night by Israel in Syria and Iraq. They lack the type of power projection to do shit in another continent. Russia? Maybe. They haven't really shown any interest in South America in the extent of doing them a Vietnam though so I wouldn't say. Honestly, unless Trump manages to fuck this up hard, Maduro is on his own.

[Aboveland]

Your bias is obvious and also wrong. Maduro created the new constituent assembly with an election because the parliament was doing everything it could to sabotage him, much like what happened to Allende. Maduro also didn't declare himself anything - he was elected and I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that this election was rigged or tampered with in any way. The opposition has been calling for a military coup for a while now, and it should not be forgotten that these are the people who are burning food, hiding food, and doing everything they can do sabotage Venezuela. None of this would be happening if Maduro took control of the major food business and other firms and stopped them from choosing to sell on the black market instead of the real economy where they can't price gouge people.

oh god oh fuck you're serious

[Orostan]

Your bias is obvious

Intentional.

Maduro created the new constituent assembly with an election because the parliament was doing everything it could to sabotage him,

An election among your own party to decide who should run the country when the legitimate election decided it shouldn't be you and is trying to oust you is not an election.

much like what happened to Allende.

A good thing.

Except Allende wasn't thrown out by a legitimate election, but instead by a popularly supported military coup, but that's beyond the point.

Maduro also didn't declare himself anything - he was elected and I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that this election was rigged or tampered with in any way.

Let's see who agrees

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png

The opposition has been calling for a military coup for a while now, and it should not be forgotten that these are the people who are burning food, hiding food, and doing everything they can do sabotage Venezuela.

As their moral duty is to do so.

None of this would be happening if Maduro took control of the major food business and other firms and stopped them from choosing to sell on the black market instead of the real economy where they can't price gouge people.

None of this would be happening if Maduro didn't have a parallel parliament running the country.



What a democratic-looking parliament. 503 Government supporters and 42 vacant seats. Smells like legitimacy to me.

1) The opposition refused to even contest the constituent assembly election because they knew they'd loose.

2) Pinochet was not supported by the population. Allende had actually gained in popularity prior to the coup.

3) That is an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy.

4) Military coups are not 'moral duty' when the coup would install what would be an objectively bad government for most people.

5) The opposition did not even contest the elections for that because they'd have lost badly and legitimized Maduro! The fact that the opposition is allowed to exist and openly demand a military dictatorship should tell you that there is quite a bit of democracy in Venezuela.

[Orostan]

Is this a criticism of Maduro or a criticism of my argument? Either way it is not a good one.

You didn't provide an argument at all though. Just the usual socialist dictator apologism.

I said that Maduro won his elections fairly, which he did. I am apologizing for nothing and no socialist dictator because Maduro isn't even a socialist, he's a social democrat, and he isn't even a dictator.

[Khataiy]

Hezbollah (The Party of Satan) and Bashar can say good bye to one of their despicable allies

[The World Capitalist Confederation]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/23/americas/venezuela-protests/index.html

Just as it says on the tin:

The head of Venezuela's National Assembly had himself sworn in as interim president Wednesday as thousands of supporters took to the streets in a revitalized effort against the government of President Nicolas Maduro.

Meanwhile, Trump has immediately recognised the legitimacy of the new government in place of the Maduro government.

In my opinion, I hope this transfer of power can happen peacfully. I am happy to see a government with some democratic legitimacy take the place of an autocratic government, but even if Guaido wins power then the problems are far from over. I hope the US will not intervene militarily as that will only make things worse.

What do you think, oh barrels of bubbling crude that make up NSG?

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

[Hammer Britannia]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/23/americas/venezuela-protests/index.html

Just as it says on the tin:



Meanwhile, Trump has immediately recognised the legitimacy of the new government in place of the Maduro government.

In my opinion, I hope this transfer of power can happen peacfully. I am happy to see a government with some democratic legitimacy take the place of an autocratic government, but even if Guaido wins power then the problems are far from over. I hope the US will not intervene militarily as that will only make things worse.

What do you think, oh barrels of bubbling crude that make up NSG?

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

Nice puppet Orostan

[Aclion]

Your bias is obvious and also wrong. Maduro created the new constituent assembly with an election because the parliament was doing everything it could to sabotage him, much like what happened to Allende. Maduro also didn't declare himself anything - he was elected and I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that this election was rigged or tampered with in any way. The opposition has been calling for a military coup for a while now, and it should not be forgotten that these are the people who are burning food, hiding food, and doing everything they can do sabotage Venezuela. None of this would be happening if Maduro took control of the major food business and other firms and stopped them from choosing to sell on the black market instead of the real economy where they can't price gouge people.

Calm down. You don't need to defend Maduro. Venezuela stopped being Communist the moment it failed.

[Thermodolia]

It’s not going to end peacefully. Brazil has been talking about freeing Venezuela for a few weeks now. There’s going to be a civil war

[Orostan]

Your bias is obvious and also wrong. Maduro created the new constituent assembly with an election because the parliament was doing everything it could to sabotage him, much like what happened to Allende. Maduro also didn't declare himself anything - he was elected and I have yet to see a single shred of evidence that this election was rigged or tampered with in any way. The opposition has been calling for a military coup for a while now, and it should not be forgotten that these are the people who are burning food, hiding food, and doing everything they can do sabotage Venezuela. None of this would be happening if Maduro took control of the major food business and other firms and stopped them from choosing to sell on the black market instead of the real economy where they can't price gouge people.

Calm down. You don't need to defend Maduro. Venezuela stopped being Communist the moment it failed.

>implying Venezuela was ever communist

70% of the economy in private hands is not Communism or Socialism.

[Aclion]

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went.

looks at Chile
looks at all the countries were democratic socialists got in power.

All in all probably the best possible outcome.

[Havarland]

Something, something tells me that Civil War is coming. And I wonder if the Russians and Iranians would help Venezuela quell this "insurgency" as they would dub it.

Probably not, as trump has proclaimed support of the opposition.

Most nations don't want another Vietnam...

Yeah, as if politicians ever cared about people

[Shrillland]

In regards to what Zukerx said over at the MAGAthread:

Authoritarian regimes rarely go down without a fight. This is going to get messy especially with Brazil’s recent posturing

Well, Trump may need a war to happen in Latin America. After all, wars make Presidents popular (see Iraq as an example). But would he get that involved remains the question, and which side would Brazil take?? I know very little about the Venezuela and Brazil relationship.

The answer is that until Bolsonaro became president, Venezuela and Brazil were fairly close. Now, however, Bolsonaro has done a complete 180 in terms of regional policy as he pines for the days of the Condors. Brazil would likely intervene in such a conflict, and if they do, possible American participation becomes a practical impossibility seeing as the authoritarian right leaders need to stick together.

[Trumptonium1]

Brazil and Argentina officially recognise the opposition leader as legitimate President and completely end diplomatic relations with the de facto government.

http://www.batimes.com.ar/news/latin-am ... -oas.phtml

Bolsonaro has also suggested "using" the Army that has been deployed to the Venezuelan border in August 2018 to manage the inflow of tens of thousands of refugees, but didn't say what for.

[Thermodolia]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/23/americas/venezuela-protests/index.html

Just as it says on the tin:



Meanwhile, Trump has immediately recognised the legitimacy of the new government in place of the Maduro government.

In my opinion, I hope this transfer of power can happen peacfully. I am happy to see a government with some democratic legitimacy take the place of an autocratic government, but even if Guaido wins power then the problems are far from over. I hope the US will not intervene militarily as that will only make things worse.

What do you think, oh barrels of bubbling crude that make up NSG?

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

Venezuela isn’t Democratic. That’s pretty plainly noted. They aren’t not democratic because of socialism but because of the fact that the de facto president illegali suspended congress and tried to create a new constitution that would benefit him

[Thermodolia]

Brazil and Argentina officially recognise the opposition leader as legitimate President and completely end diplomatic relations with the de facto government.

http://www.batimes.com.ar/news/latin-am ... -oas.phtml

Bolsonaro has also suggested "using" the Army that has been deployed to the Venezuelan border in August 2018 to manage the inflow of tens of thousands of refugees, but didn't say what for.

And so it begins. Civil war or foreign intervention is right around the corner

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

Venezuela isn’t Democratic. That’s pretty plainly noted. They aren’t not democratic because of socialism but because of the fact that the de facto president illegali suspended congress and tried to create a new constitution that would benefit him

Thermy while I agree with your post the eternal revolution has never been democratic, lol.

[Trumptonium1]

God-Emperor Bolsonaro calls Maduro "a cancer" in a video message and says he will do "everything I can to restore freedom to Venezuela" and "re-establish order and democracy" after his ministers meet with Venezuelan opposition leaders.

[Zurkerx]

In regards to what Zukerx said over at the MAGAthread:

Well, Trump may need a war to happen in Latin America. After all, wars make Presidents popular (see Iraq as an example). But would he get that involved remains the question, and which side would Brazil take?? I know very little about the Venezuela and Brazil relationship.

The answer is that until Bolsonaro became president, Venezuela and Brazil were fairly close. Now, however, Bolsonaro has done a complete 180 in terms of regional policy as he pines for the days of the Condors. Brazil would likely intervene in such a conflict, and if they do, possible American participation becomes a practical impossibility seeing as the authoritarian right leaders need to stick together.

Thanks for responding here, I wasn't entirely sure where to put it since it somewhat tied into Trump. I see now, so we could see a regional conflict in South America, especially since Venezuela is allied with Bolivia and others. However, Russia and Iran also have close ties to Venezuela, and their governments aren't left-wing (calling them far-right is a stretch, but you get the point). It begs to question whether it devolves into a proxy war as well.

[Valrifell]

Do you think we'll be back before Christmas?

[Orostan]

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went.

looks at Chile
looks at all the countries were democratic socialists got in power.

All in all probably the best possible outcome.

>40% poverty is good
>poor people eating is bad

Venezuela isn’t Democratic. That’s pretty plainly noted. They aren’t not democratic because of socialism but because of the fact that the de facto president illegali suspended congress and tried to create a new constitution that would benefit him

Thermy while I agree with your post the eternal revolution has never been democratic, lol.

It has though.

VUVUZELA NOT DEMOCRATIC HURR DURR COZ COZ IT'S SOCCIE! On a less strawman-y note, Venezuela isn't autocratic. Saying so is like saying that Pinochet should've taken over Allende's government despite it being democratically elected and replaced by a dictatorship. And we all know how that went. Just ask the people who were thrown off helicopters or shot in stadiums. The Opposition has actually gotten a meaningful amount of votes in past Venezuelan elections. To call it not democratic is to question the meaning of democracy itself, which we should. I agree that Venezuela isn't democratic by my own meaning of the term, but to accept my own meaning is to accept that the USA, the UK and several other 'democratic' nations are also not democratic. By the regular meaning of democracy, Venezuela is democratic. So stop your rabid brainwashed anti-'communism' (despite Venezuela not being communist or socialist; to call it such is to agree that Gorbachev was also both).

Venezuela isn’t Democratic. That’s pretty plainly noted. They aren’t not democratic because of socialism but because of the fact that the de facto president illegali suspended congress and tried to create a new constitution that would benefit him

He suspended congress because they were being obstructionist and attempting to sabotage anything good anyone did. He then created a constituent assembly because he knew the parliament wouldn't go for new elections that would certainly oust the opposition. The opposition did not contest the assembly elections because they'd loose, giving Maduro the assembly in its entirety.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

looks at Chile
looks at all the countries were democratic socialists got in power.

All in all probably the best possible outcome.

>40% poverty is good
>poor people eating is bad

Thermy while I agree with your post the eternal revolution has never been democratic, lol.

It has though.

Venezuela isn’t Democratic. That’s pretty plainly noted. They aren’t not democratic because of socialism but because of the fact that the de facto president illegali suspended congress and tried to create a new constitution that would benefit him

He suspended congress because they were being obstructionist and attempting to sabotage anything good anyone did. He then created a constituent assembly because he knew the parliament wouldn't go for new elections that would certainly oust the opposition. The opposition did not contest the assembly elections because they'd loose, giving Maduro the assembly in its entirety.

"It has though' lol, I'm having a lol attack,

[Arcturus Novus]

God-Emperor Bolsonaro calls Maduro "a cancer" in a video message and says he will do "everything I can to restore freedom to Venezuela" and "re-establish order and democracy" after his ministers meet with Venezuelan opposition leaders.

Takes cancer to know cancer.

[Trumptonium1]

https://twitter.com/jairbolsonaro/statu ... 9388014593

[Orostan]

>40% poverty is good
>poor people eating is bad


It has though.



He suspended congress because they were being obstructionist and attempting to sabotage anything good anyone did. He then created a constituent assembly because he knew the parliament wouldn't go for new elections that would certainly oust the opposition. The opposition did not contest the assembly elections because they'd loose, giving Maduro the assembly in its entirety.

"It has though' lol, I'm having a lol attack,

nob an argumenb xxddd