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US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Will the government shutdown in three weeks?

Yes
102
78%
No
29
22%
 
Total votes : 131

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:32 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Yes, and where is that enumerated?


Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the United States' Constitution.


That only states that one has to be a natural born citizen. It never defines what that means.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7797
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:36 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the United States' Constitution.


That only states that one has to be a natural born citizen. It never defines what that means.


The usually agreed upon definition is that you must be born in the United States.

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39947
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:36 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Or to have been an American citizen in 1789, though that one hasn't come up for a while.

And maybe also all of the other categories under §1401, who are citizens at birth, not naturalized, but none of them have yet gotten a case to the Supreme Court to establish if they're "natural-born", whatever the fuck that means. Actually, "have two American citizens has parents" is also in that condition.


As an example, Ted Cruz's father wasn't a US Citizen until 2005, rendering his eligibility sketchy under these proposed rules.
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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:28 am

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
That only states that one has to be a natural born citizen. It never defines what that means.


The usually agreed upon definition is that you must be born in the United States.


Or born of US parents. Yes.
But "usually agreed upon" is not the same as "this is what it actually says". Heck, one could argue that it simply excludes robots (sorry Romney), IVF children and Jesus ;)
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30681
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:33 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The usually agreed upon definition is that you must be born in the United States.


Or born of US parents. Yes.
But "usually agreed upon" is not the same as "this is what it actually says". Heck, one could argue that it simply excludes robots (sorry Romney), IVF children and Jesus ;)

Well to be fair, given all the things that have been done in his name I wouldn't want Jesus as my president either.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:35 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Or born of US parents. Yes.
But "usually agreed upon" is not the same as "this is what it actually says". Heck, one could argue that it simply excludes robots (sorry Romney), IVF children and Jesus ;)

Well to be fair, given all the things that have been done in his name I wouldn't want Jesus as my president either.

Aside from which, he is already the King of Poland (and Mary the Queen.. do not think about that).

That implies a conflict of interest.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30681
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:36 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Well to be fair, given all the things that have been done in his name I wouldn't want Jesus as my president either.

Aside from which, he is already the King of Poland (and Mary the Queen.. do not think about that).

That implies a conflict of interest.

Say what now? Sources or it didn't happen. :p
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:40 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Aside from which, he is already the King of Poland (and Mary the Queen.. do not think about that).

That implies a conflict of interest.

Say what now? Sources or it didn't happen. :p

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2016/n ... he-country
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bmw ... poland-876
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Far Easter Republic
Envoy
 
Posts: 271
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Far Easter Republic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:42 am

Page wrote:If everyone made to work without pay refused to show up to work, shutdowns would end in less than 5 minutes. All it takes is solidarity and everyone being willing to come together. One employee who refuses to show up gets fired, but if no one shows up they can't fire all of them.

Perfect!
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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48543
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:43 am

Vassenor wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
He meant that one of the required conditions to become President is to have been born in the United States or to have two American citizens as parents.


Yes, and where is that enumerated?

Natural born citizen.
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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:46 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Yes, and where is that enumerated?

Natural born citizen.


That means "not born using a C-section".
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17553
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:47 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Yes, and where is that enumerated?

Natural born citizen.


Not quite: there's a few edge cases that might or might not be natural-born citizens (and, for that matter, having two American citizens as parents might not count).
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48543
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:51 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The usually agreed upon definition is that you must be born in the United States.


Or born of US parents. Yes.
But "usually agreed upon" is not the same as "this is what it actually says". Heck, one could argue that it simply excludes robots (sorry Romney), IVF children and Jesus ;)

As Sal linked above US immigration and citizenship law lays out what is and isn’t an automatic citizen of the US. I know it’s hard to understand, especially if you come from a nation where they spell out everything in the constitution
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:52 am

Thermodolia wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Or born of US parents. Yes.
But "usually agreed upon" is not the same as "this is what it actually says". Heck, one could argue that it simply excludes robots (sorry Romney), IVF children and Jesus ;)

As Sal linked above US immigration and citizenship law lays out what is and isn’t an automatic citizen of the US. I know it’s hard to understand, especially if you come from a nation where they spell out everything in the constitution


Oh, I know that. The question asked however "where in the constitution does it state that".
And it does not. Which also means it can change easily so that Ah-nold could run.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48543
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:55 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Natural born citizen.


Not quite: there's a few edge cases that might or might not be natural-born citizens (and, for that matter, having two American citizens as parents might not count).

Under the current law having at least one parent counts. And tbh I really don’t care if it’s in the constitution or not. Immigration law pretty much states the IM isn’t a automatic citizen and therefore can’t be president.

Which was the original fucking point until Vass got pissy about the damn constitution
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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Thermodolia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 48543
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:57 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:As Sal linked above US immigration and citizenship law lays out what is and isn’t an automatic citizen of the US. I know it’s hard to understand, especially if you come from a nation where they spell out everything in the constitution


Oh, I know that. The question asked however "where in the constitution does it state that".
And it does not. Which also means it can change easily so that Ah-nold could run.

I don’t give a flying fuck what the constitution says. The damn thing can mean whatever the hell the judges on my payroll want it to mean.

And that’s where y’all made your mistake. Arguing with someone who’d readily change massive parts of the constitution and isn’t an originalist
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

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Bahktar
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 124
Founded: Mar 16, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Bahktar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:33 am

Thermodolia wrote: hell the judges on my payroll want it to mean.

And that’s where y’all made your mistake. Arguing with someone who’d readily change massive parts of the constitution and isn’t an originalist


It works both ways - the constitution doesn't care if you want to massively change parts of it and aren't an originalist, it's going to work how it is working and has been interpreted. Because you disagree with the constitution doesn't mean you don't have to abide by it.

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Salandriagado
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17553
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:35 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Not quite: there's a few edge cases that might or might not be natural-born citizens (and, for that matter, having two American citizens as parents might not count).

Under the current law having at least one parent counts. And tbh I really don’t care if it’s in the constitution or not. Immigration law pretty much states the IM isn’t a automatic citizen and therefore can’t be president.

Which was the original fucking point until Vass got pissy about the damn constitution


No, I was referring to some of those annoying edge cases: having citizen parents doesn't count if accepting US citizenship would lose you access to tribal property and citizenship, or if you were born outside the US and possessions to parents who had never been residents of the US.

Entirely agreed on the actual point, though.
Last edited by Salandriagado on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125943
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:39 am

Hot take: Non-citizens should be able to old any political office, elected or appointed.
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And our work is never done
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And the war is never won

The enemy is poverty
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That's why we build the wall
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Valrifell
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Posts: 17936
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:59 am

Ifreann wrote:Hot take: Non-citizens should be able to old any political office, elected or appointed.


We already have Russian actors in our government, why do you want to make it easier for Putin?
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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16179
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:06 am

Valrifell wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Hot take: Non-citizens should be able to old any political office, elected or appointed.


We already have Russian actors in our government, why do you want to make it easier for Putin?


When you think of Putin, you think of manly walks.
When you think of Trump you think of a whiny man-child

If you want your country to be great again, whom should you serve ?
(Saru...)
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 125943
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:09 am

Valrifell wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Hot take: Non-citizens should be able to old any political office, elected or appointed.


We already have Russian actors in our government, why do you want to make it easier for Putin?

Do you really think it would be easier for Putin if his agents were standing for election openly, or facing the scrutiny of Senate confirmation hearings?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won

The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

User avatar
Loben
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1526
Founded: Sep 27, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Loben » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:48 am

Par Chic wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:antifa also assaulted a liberal for carrying a US flag, calling it a "fascist symbol".

So, antifa can fuck off.


So you support fascists?


yes.

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55772
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:58 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Not quite: there's a few edge cases that might or might not be natural-born citizens (and, for that matter, having two American citizens as parents might not count).

Under the current law having at least one parent counts. And tbh I really don’t care if it’s in the constitution or not. Immigration law pretty much states the IM isn’t a automatic citizen and therefore can’t be president.

Which was the original fucking point until Vass got pissy about the damn constitution

There’s two items of note:

1) Subsequent laws can not define what the terms in the constitution mean. Otherwise the constitution would be largely meaningless.

2) There is not equality in the current “one parent counts” rule. There are additional rules and requirements if the one parent is the father.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... broad.html
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Xmara
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1819
Founded: Mar 31, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Xmara » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:16 am

Day 29. We have almost hit the one month mark. Are we gonna go for two months? Three? Forever?

Par Chic wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:antifa also assaulted a liberal for carrying a US flag, calling it a "fascist symbol".

So, antifa can fuck off.


So you support fascists?


That is a major loaded question. One can hate antifa without supporting fascists.

As for another civil war happening? Yeah, I don’t see that happening. Tensions are definitely high, but I just don’t see it happening in the near future.
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