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Se Þræd Eald Englisċes (The Old English Thread)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:02 am

English speakers attempting to learn Old English is like me attempting to learn Old Spanish or Mozarabic.

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Hrythingia
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Postby Hrythingia » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:44 am

The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Gotta say, I respect people spending their free time to learn old languages, keeping them alive.

How hard is it to learn Old English?

Well it is in my University course so its not entirely my 'free-time' but its not too hard if you are already English or even Germanic speaking. As with all languages, wrap your head around the grammar and orthography then slowly ease in the vocab. Just read parallel texts and become more familiar with it.
Valentine Z wrote:
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Gotta say, I respect people spending their free time to learn old languages, keeping them alive.

How hard is it to learn Old English?


Adding to what I said with my puppet nation, I'll say that it's pretty difficult, but mostly because the sources are lacking.

Unlike Latin, you don't see Old English being used in any subject or topic, save from history of linguistics classes. Latin had the pleasure of being in legal terms and whatnot, while Old English doesn't have that privilege.

Most likely you have to be self-taught with a book or two, because AFAIK there are no online courses, and the amount of people proficient enough to teach it are a rare one.

I did quote an online vocabulary resource but it is not a course. If anyone needs some help I could potentially lend a hand where possible.
The Wielderdom of Hrythingia
Þæs Ƿealdaríċe Hrýðinglondes

State type: Semi-Elective Monarchy
Leader: Earl Wynmar II of The Ashwold, Hrythwealda
Capital: Ernburh
Language: Hrystic (Old English)
Religion: Catholicism
Characteristics: Isolationist, mercantile, conservative, rural, deeply religious
Industries: sheep/beef agriculture, fishing, offshore oil, financial services
Britonnis nati, Anglis Dei Gratia! A Catholic Conservative Briton, Late Antiquities Student and Reservist Officer in training. Interests: hunting, rugby, choral music, history, literature, linguistics and alcohol.

Ar i Dduw, er mwyn fy Ngheidwad, Roddi i mi galon lân.

Se Þræd Eald Englisċes

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Lyrical International Brigade
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Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Image


My main attraction to Anglo-Saxon is the use of the letters thorn, eth, and æ (sorry, only one of those has Android keyboard support :( ). I would love the entirely impossible event that we go back to using them for actual writing:

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Auze
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Postby Auze » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Oddly enough, the dialect of French that combined with Anglo-Saxon-Jute to form modern English is still spoken today as a native language.
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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:15 pm

When I was in AP Lit back in high school, we read Beowulf and watched a video of a guy reading it in Old English. It sounded like backwards German to me.
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Duhon
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Postby Duhon » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:English speakers attempting to learn Old English is like me attempting to learn Old Spanish or Mozarabic.


As someone who's been engaged in building fictional protolanguages based on Proto-Indo-European for the last six months or so, I understand the appeal completely.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 pm

Mardla wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Why is it called old english? i can understand middle english but this doesnt look english at all. It looks like some bizarre hybrid of German and Welsh.


It is very much Old English (I actually just started learning it this earlier week). The spelling is funny, but it's actually not as different as it looks from Middle English. The main stumbling block is that there a lot more word forms, because that's how grammar works in Old English. The letter þ is "th" as in loath, and ð is th as in "loathe". "Sc" is pronounced like "sh" (for example, "scip"), although otherwise "c" is pronounced like "k" or German "c" (as is "h" in some contexts). "Girnan" for example means "desire", and that might look funny, but "g" before "i" is typically pronounced "y", so you read it aloud and suddenly you see the connection. Although there are obsolete words used, for example in the above Lord's Prayer, kingdom is "rice" (pronounced ree-keh), which is obviously nearer to "reich" than current use of "kingdom", although "kingdom" itself also comes from Old English ("cyningdom").

It's a pretty language, I'm enjoying learning it.

What resources do you use to learn it? I'm asking this because my college doesn't offer old English as a course.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:47 pm

If we're bringing Old English back we should bring the runes back as well.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:50 pm

Duhon wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:English speakers attempting to learn Old English is like me attempting to learn Old Spanish or Mozarabic.


As someone who's been engaged in building fictional protolanguages based on Proto-Indo-European for the last six months or so, I understand the appeal completely.


Mozarabic is bloody bullshit though.

You can clearly see and hear the Latin/Romance in it, but it's polluted by so much Arabic loanwords.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:52 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Duhon wrote:
As someone who's been engaged in building fictional protolanguages based on Proto-Indo-European for the last six months or so, I understand the appeal completely.


Mozarabic is bloody bull though.

You can clearly see and hear the Latin/Romance in it, but it's polluted by so much Arabic loanwords.

Andalusi Arabic is better. I wish it were still alive.
Also, Mozarabic isn't 1 language, it's an umbrella term for the Arabic (and Amazigh?) influenced Romance languages spoken during Al-Andalus.
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Scroll down to The Archregimancy's post. This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't ban anyone who uses kafir.
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Technocratic Uganda
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Postby Technocratic Uganda » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pm

Doesn't Old English have grammatical case? How much of a pain is that?
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Hrythingia
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Postby Hrythingia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:40 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Mardla wrote:
It is very much Old English (I actually just started learning it this earlier week). The spelling is funny, but it's actually not as different as it looks from Middle English. The main stumbling block is that there a lot more word forms, because that's how grammar works in Old English. The letter þ is "th" as in loath, and ð is th as in "loathe". "Sc" is pronounced like "sh" (for example, "scip"), although otherwise "c" is pronounced like "k" or German "c" (as is "h" in some contexts). "Girnan" for example means "desire", and that might look funny, but "g" before "i" is typically pronounced "y", so you read it aloud and suddenly you see the connection. Although there are obsolete words used, for example in the above Lord's Prayer, kingdom is "rice" (pronounced ree-keh), which is obviously nearer to "reich" than current use of "kingdom", although "kingdom" itself also comes from Old English ("cyningdom").

It's a pretty language, I'm enjoying learning it.

What resources do you use to learn it? I'm asking this because my college doesn't offer old English as a course.

I provided some resources in the OP but feel free to wang me over a telegram for more detailed help.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:If we're bringing Old English back we should bring the runes back as well.

I didn't say anything about bringing it back as a vernacular ha ha, we are well over that waterfall. Also Old English was rarely written in Futhorc Runic as the only literates with few exceptions were monks and they preferred the Roman Alphabet.
Technocratic Uganda wrote:Doesn't Old English have grammatical case? How much of a pain is that?

:eyebrow: Many many languages have grammatical cases and in fact this makes the language easier to deal with since you can place a lot of information inside a word and thus sentences can be treated like a simple equation rather than relying on word order alone which is highly restrictive for verse composition. Or even prose for that matter.

The word for wood: ƿudu declines like so as a noun:
singular -plural
Nominative -ƿudu -ƿuda
Accusative -ƿudu -ƿuda
Genitive -ƿuda -ƿuda
Dative -ƿuda -ƿudum

Verbs are fairly straight foward, they have a tense and a person though unlike in Latin the person is often expressed seperately.
The Wielderdom of Hrythingia
Þæs Ƿealdaríċe Hrýðinglondes

State type: Semi-Elective Monarchy
Leader: Earl Wynmar II of The Ashwold, Hrythwealda
Capital: Ernburh
Language: Hrystic (Old English)
Religion: Catholicism
Characteristics: Isolationist, mercantile, conservative, rural, deeply religious
Industries: sheep/beef agriculture, fishing, offshore oil, financial services
Britonnis nati, Anglis Dei Gratia! A Catholic Conservative Briton, Late Antiquities Student and Reservist Officer in training. Interests: hunting, rugby, choral music, history, literature, linguistics and alcohol.

Ar i Dduw, er mwyn fy Ngheidwad, Roddi i mi galon lân.

Se Þræd Eald Englisċes

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Treadwellia
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Postby Treadwellia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:53 am

It's been some years, but, hey, B. A. and M. A. in English, here, with heavy emphasis on British literature, so I definitely ran into a good deal of Old English in my time.

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Crylante
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Postby Crylante » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:48 pm

How do you express future in Old English? Only I know the verbs only conjugate for past and present, and I'm not sure if all the extra grammatical words we use for tenses in Modern English were used back then.
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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:54 pm

We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?
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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:30 pm

Hrythingia wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:What resources do you use to learn it? I'm asking this because my college doesn't offer old English as a course.

I provided some resources in the OP but feel free to wang me over a telegram for more detailed help.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:If we're bringing Old English back we should bring the runes back as well.

I didn't say anything about bringing it back as a vernacular ha ha, we are well over that waterfall. Also Old English was rarely written in Futhorc Runic as the only literates with few exceptions were monks and they preferred the Roman Alphabet.
Technocratic Uganda wrote:Doesn't Old English have grammatical case? How much of a pain is that?

:eyebrow: Many many languages have grammatical cases and in fact this makes the language easier to deal with since you can place a lot of information inside a word and thus sentences can be treated like a simple equation rather than relying on word order alone which is highly restrictive for verse composition. Or even prose for that matter.

The word for wood: ƿudu declines like so as a noun:
singular -plural
Nominative -ƿudu -ƿuda
Accusative -ƿudu -ƿuda
Genitive -ƿuda -ƿuda
Dative -ƿuda -ƿudum

Verbs are fairly straight foward, they have a tense and a person though unlike in Latin the person is often expressed seperately.


I just realized that Monty Python is using Old English:

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Postby Hurdergaryp » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:38 pm

Aellex wrote:We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?

Visited his grave at the Abbey of Saint-Étienne in Caen. Not that a lot of his remains survived the centuries, but there's still a bit of him underneath the tombstone.

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Hrythingia
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Postby Hrythingia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:58 pm

Crylante wrote:How do you express future in Old English? Only I know the verbs only conjugate for past and present, and I'm not sure if all the extra grammatical words we use for tenses in Modern English were used back then.

The future in old English is the same as modern English, either expressed as a stative verb like ‘will be going’ or just by throwing in a time indication like ‘I do my exam on Monday.’
Aellex wrote:We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?

There are many good things about modern English but Old English in and of itself a very fine language and I’m sorry to see it gone as vernacular. It sounds very nice too... almost soothing.
The Wielderdom of Hrythingia
Þæs Ƿealdaríċe Hrýðinglondes

State type: Semi-Elective Monarchy
Leader: Earl Wynmar II of The Ashwold, Hrythwealda
Capital: Ernburh
Language: Hrystic (Old English)
Religion: Catholicism
Characteristics: Isolationist, mercantile, conservative, rural, deeply religious
Industries: sheep/beef agriculture, fishing, offshore oil, financial services
Britonnis nati, Anglis Dei Gratia! A Catholic Conservative Briton, Late Antiquities Student and Reservist Officer in training. Interests: hunting, rugby, choral music, history, literature, linguistics and alcohol.

Ar i Dduw, er mwyn fy Ngheidwad, Roddi i mi galon lân.

Se Þræd Eald Englisċes

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:12 pm

Aellex wrote:We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?


See, this is why nobody likes France.

England would have been better off under Hardrada.
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Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Come back when the French aren't protesting about something. That's real news.

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Hrythingia
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Postby Hrythingia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:15 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Aellex wrote:We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?


See, this is why nobody likes France.

England would have been better off under Hardrada.

To be fair that would likely have sealed England’s fate to be a Scandi nation in perpetuum.
The Wielderdom of Hrythingia
Þæs Ƿealdaríċe Hrýðinglondes

State type: Semi-Elective Monarchy
Leader: Earl Wynmar II of The Ashwold, Hrythwealda
Capital: Ernburh
Language: Hrystic (Old English)
Religion: Catholicism
Characteristics: Isolationist, mercantile, conservative, rural, deeply religious
Industries: sheep/beef agriculture, fishing, offshore oil, financial services
Britonnis nati, Anglis Dei Gratia! A Catholic Conservative Briton, Late Antiquities Student and Reservist Officer in training. Interests: hunting, rugby, choral music, history, literature, linguistics and alcohol.

Ar i Dduw, er mwyn fy Ngheidwad, Roddi i mi galon lân.

Se Þræd Eald Englisċes

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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:21 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Aellex wrote:We really did a charitable act when we removed that abomination and replaced it by one of our patois.
Three cheers for Guillaume le Bâtard, I guess ?


See, this is why nobody likes France.

England would have been better off under Hardrada.

Shush, better for English to have become !notFrançais rather than !notNorwegian, old English was doomed to go anyway.
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Minyaveli
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Postby Minyaveli » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:23 pm

[quote="Hrythingia";p="35009164"]
Ƿes hál, hú gǽþ?

In other words: Wees Heel, Hoe Gaat (het)?

Wow, that is very Germanic, and particularly very much like Dutch.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:25 pm

Hrythingia wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
See, this is why nobody likes France.

England would have been better off under Hardrada.

To be fair that would likely have sealed England’s fate to be a Scandi nation in perpetuum.


Nah. Hardrada was, like, in his 70s by then. Plus, England's history with Vikings would probably have been enough to drive a major revolt against the Norwegian Yoke.

Aellex wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
See, this is why nobody likes France.

England would have been better off under Hardrada.

Shush, better for English to have become !notFrançais rather than !notNorwegian, old English was doomed to go anyway.


French is a horrible language. It's disgustingly flamboyant; bringing shame to it's fellow Romance languages.
Eodor wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Do you want Crusades? Because this is how you get Crusades.

Trazyn the Infinite encourages Imperial forces to embark on the Indomitus Crusade after the Fall of Cadia. Circa. M42
Proctopeo wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Come back when the French aren't protesting about something. That's real news.

"President Macron, the peasants are revolting!"
"I'm well aware of that, they don't even bathe. Servant, bring me more wine."
The South Falls wrote:
Kannap wrote:This look isn't cute on you.

He's funding my salt mine.

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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:30 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:French is a horrible language. It's disgustingly flamboyant; bringing shame to it's fellow Romance languages.

This is why no one like you Germanics, absolutely no taste and in top of that mistaking strengths for flaws, smh.
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Hrythingia
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Postby Hrythingia » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:31 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Hrythingia wrote:To be fair that would likely have sealed England’s fate to be a Scandi nation in perpetuum.


Nah. Hardrada was, like, in his 70s by then. Plus, England's history with Vikings would probably have been enough to drive a major revolt against the Norwegian Yoke.

Aellex wrote:Shush, better for English to have become !notFrançais rather than !notNorwegian, old English was doomed to go anyway.


French is a horrible language. It's disgustingly flamboyant; bringing shame to it's fellow Romance languages.

I think the Normans did well to start creating ‘Britain’ as we might understand it today, creating a hegemony over all the isles slowly and in part.

French is a nice language in and of itself but Old English was doomed? No, it was a strong and sturdy language with a good corpus of literature.
Last edited by Hrythingia on Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wielderdom of Hrythingia
Þæs Ƿealdaríċe Hrýðinglondes

State type: Semi-Elective Monarchy
Leader: Earl Wynmar II of The Ashwold, Hrythwealda
Capital: Ernburh
Language: Hrystic (Old English)
Religion: Catholicism
Characteristics: Isolationist, mercantile, conservative, rural, deeply religious
Industries: sheep/beef agriculture, fishing, offshore oil, financial services
Britonnis nati, Anglis Dei Gratia! A Catholic Conservative Briton, Late Antiquities Student and Reservist Officer in training. Interests: hunting, rugby, choral music, history, literature, linguistics and alcohol.

Ar i Dduw, er mwyn fy Ngheidwad, Roddi i mi galon lân.

Se Þræd Eald Englisċes

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